Ok, my first thoughts were... WOW, these are some really nice looking Sierra Garters!

I'm went out yesterday with my girlfriend to a little secluded area I'd never been before. Wasn't sure what we'd find... was hoping to see a Long-toed Sal or maybe a new undiscovered population of Lyell. I instead found something far more interesting. First let me start with some pics of a Sierra Garter I found last week in El Dorado County. Definately one of the nicest looking Sierra's I've seen, until yesterday...

ALL PHOTOGRAPHY COPYRIGHT RICHARD PORTER


Sierra Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Sierra Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Sierra Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr






The bluish/purple side belly coloration is a new one on me... These snakes are known to have several variations. I've seen pictures of Sierras posted by Devlin Espeleta and Chad Lane, that have more of a white belly with a stripish rusty color blended in... found further south. I think this might be the first El Dorado Co. Sierra I've found (along with a juvi from the same day). I normaly find them in Placer Co. which don't look much different from this one. I'm used to seeing a lot of that rusty coloration on the bellies. Here's a few pics from last year:


Sierra Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Sierra Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Sierra Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr




After hiking a mile in tward the area we had set out for, we had to turn back do to the river water level being unusually high. We talked to some other hikers that said the crossing logs had also been washed out. My girlfriend wasn't feeling well, so we headed back. I searched a little cove before leaving which is where I found this Mountain Garter, with unusual Sierra Garter belly coloration and brownish on top:


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr

I went over to another cove wit a log to take a couple quick pics, when I noticed the 1st questionable snake swimming near the shore... winding through weeds, about 30 ft away from me. With camera and the Mountain Garter in one hand I stared making my way over to it, in waist deep water. Then, suddenly, a greenish snake jets out in front of me from the log I was using to keep my balance. It drove, but I managed to grab him with my free hand. I continued after the other snake. He saw me and started bookin, so I thrashed tward him, reached, and barley got the tip of his tail with two figers. Then I see another! LOL I grabbed that one too and headed for the shore. Here are some photos of the best looking one:



HANDFUL OF SNAKES VIDEO: http://youtu.be/8NHLCWb6I48





Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr


Gartersnake by Porter78, on Flickr





First source I checked was Calherps:

Thamnophis couchii - Sierra Gartersnake

A medium-sized slender snake with a head barely wider than the neck, a narrow snout, small eyes, and keeled dorsal scales. This snake is variable in appearance. The ground color is olive brown, dark brown, or blackish, and there are dark blotches on the back and upper sides which are obscured when the ground color is very dark. A light dorsal stripe may be present, but it is not distinct, except on the neck. LIght lateral stripes may or may not be present on the 2nd and 3rd scale rows. Northern populations of this snake have mottled black coloring below. This mottling is not present in southern populations.
Populations in streams draining into the Sacramento River all tend to lack lateral stripes. A melanistic population exists in Plum Creek, Tehama County.

Thamnophis ordinoides - Northwestern Gartersnake

A medium-sized snake with a head barely wider than the neck and keeled dorsal scales. The head is relatively small compared to other California gartersnakes. Highly variable in color in pattern. Typically there is a wide and distinct dorsal stripe, but sometimes the stripe is narrow, very dull in color, or absent. The color of this stripe can be red, orange, gold, yellow, greenish, blue, white, or tan. There are usually stripes along the lower sides, but these, too, may be absent on some individuals. These stipes also vary in color from yellow, to tan, to whitish. The ground color is blackish, olive, brownish, bluish, or gray, sometimes with a reddish tint, or reddish specks, and there are typically two rows of alternating dark spots, which may be partly obscured by a very dark ground color. The underside is yellowish, brown, gray, or black, often with dark spots or red specks. Completely red, unstriped snakes occur in the Siskiyou Mountains. (St. John) Melanistic individuals are sometimes found.

There is a pic of a Northwestern with similar colors on top... However, the head looks more like your common Garter.

I then thumbed through my old edition of the Stebbins guide and noticed the Narrow-headed Garter (Thamnophis rufipunctatus) somewhat resembles the snakes I found. However, they lack the spots and I wasn't in AZ. Has anyone one ever seen one of these before? Is it possible I found a new subspecies population?



-Porter

Nice shots! The bottom snakes you posted are definitely T. couchii, you can tell right away by the head, but the color is pretty different from all the photos of this species I've seen. They do seem to be within the natural range of variation for the species though, from the description you posted.

Yeah, I figured it was probably just a Sierra. I was surprised to see that Calherps and the Stebbins guide had no record of an olive green ground color and/or blue belly coloation (Gary has record of melanistic). Also, all three snakes (shown in video), at different ages, looked the same with little varation between them. So, it is a definate unique color trait for that area and not a morph. Is it still possible it's a sub though? For example, Santa Cruz garters look identical to Diablo Garters, excet for their color differences. Is there another physical trait that separates the Santa Cruz from Diablo and other Aquatic Garters?

Hmmm, I'd chalk up the color in the first first one to normal variation.

Could the bottom one simply be an Axanthic individual?

Maybe his dad was a Mormon... uniquely unattractive snake... jim

Andres: Ok, I think I see whats going on here. lol Sorry, I made things a little confusing. The video I posted, within this post, has a lot to do with it. There are close up video shots of 3 Olive green/blue belly snakes at different ages. You'd have to have read everything I wrote and watched the video, to know what I'm talking about. Yesterday I found a Mountain garter with a rusty belly and while trying to photograph it, caught 3 Olive green snakes with blue bellies. 1 of the 3 snakes was a juvenile with redish color mixed with the blue (normal situation with juveniles. They tend to have coloration that fades with age). If it is Anxathic, then it was within 2 feet distance of two other Axantic individuals... I'm under the impression that an Axanthic herp is extremly rare and doesn't live in populations with other Anxathics. Am I right about that?

Hillihooks: I know, really lol Same green and sky blue colors... You know whats interesting is I found these around 7000 ft. I remember talking to a girl at Icehouse Reservoir, who said she used to see green snakes swimming in the water of the reservoir. She visits Icehouse regularly, but hadn't seen one since she caught them when she was a kid. I told her it was most likey a Yellow-bellied Racer. Now, Im thinking it was one of these... the habbitat is very similar. A lot lower in elevation though.

Still, I doubt its a subspecies, especially since it's right where any other Sierras would be living. If anything it looks like a neat color morph, which may or may not be specific to that area. I'd have no way of knowing, of course.

Subspecies tend to be found pretty close to one another. For example, Valley Garters and Mountain Garters are found scattered thoughout the Sierras in different populations.

K.

Subspecies either intergrade in intergrade zones, or are not found directly together.

Plus Valley Gartersnakes(Thamnophis sirtalis fitchi), and Mountain Gartersnakes (Thamnophis elegans elegans) are not subspecies.



Cheers,
Chad

Sure, they're subspecies. Just not of each other!
hahaha

Hahaha Bad example, heres a better one. Thamnophis atratus atratus and Thamnophis atratus zaxanthus, they're neighbors, explain to me the physicl difference other than color? (This is what I get for not studying and knowing scientific names my whole life) haha

However, the concept is still more important than the terminology.

They don't live together, and the range is actually quite separated. As they are subspecies of each other, one of my main differences would be range, and preferred habitat.

Yet you say "However, the concept is still more important than the terminology" You still have yet to grasp the concept altogether.



Cheers,
Chad

Hang in there Brad...Jim Dandy to the rescue...
What about patchnoses...S.h.hexalepsis & S.h.vulgatea are (far as I know) differentiated by color alone, and their ranges overlap from the Gabes to Baja, with NO intergradation zones even suggested. I THINK this example illustrates what Brad was trying to ask/say? I could be wrong though... been known to happen... jim

Hey, who's Brad?

DUHHHHHHHHHH! Brad is 'Monklet' I meant to say Porter... Been working in the sun all morning and somehow I mis-read 'bad example' as 'Brad Example'? Anybody buying this? ( cause i'm not... ) Or mixed up their avatars... Blk/white retro's of African Americans???? No? OK, fine... I'm an idiot... happy? jim

Edit... upon further reflection, I believe is was a combination of those 3 seemingly diverse elements that produced my misattributation jim

Jeese... can't even spell right now... I think I got heat prostitution... cold shower time...

Happy Independence Day guys!

Porter - Be careful what you get yourself into. Do you really want such an unattractive subspecies to carry your name around forever?

Whateva, that snakes gorgeous!

The concept is one is green and blue and the other is brown/black/brackish and ____ing red lol. Also one is at 7000 ft and and the other 5000ish-ish-ish. Dude it's cool. Lets go herping Tuesday and you can see one for yourself. Peace

(On a more serious note)The original concept I was trying to explain was The difference between this Sierra Garter and a normal Sierra Garter is very similar to the difference between other Garter subspecies (ie Diablo Garter and Santa Cruz Garter).

...I am still serious about herping Tuesday! ...or wedsnesday, you have to work tuesday because of the 4th right.

Yeah, what he said!

Does anyone know who I can contact to give a DNA sample or specimen to for research...?

Well... there's probably guys out there studying garters... they just don't publicly admit it... jim

You might pm Robert Hansen, a herpetologist and editor of Herp Review. If anyone does, he would know.

Robert

Cool, thanks Robert! Much respect man!

Porter, please keep us posted about what you find out. I'm keeping my fingers crossed for a "Thamnophis couchii porterii."

I'm no judge in these matters, as I'm a part-time community college English teacher, but I do think it's funny how variable garters can be. The coast garters in southern Santa Cruz Co. can be tricky to differentiate from Santa Cruz aquatic garters at a glance, as they can have no red at all, or at least very little. They tend to have much more red in the northern part of the county, although occasionally you get this:


Coast Garter Snake, Thamnophis elegans terrestris by J. Maughn, on Flickr

This snake was...blue.

Anyway, I hope you have a new subspecies on your hands. Those are beautiful snakes you found. And I look forward to the inevitable fights about whether you should divulge the specific locality...

JimM

Garters can really be tough. I don't think you could classify on color/pattern.

Here's an example of a Coast Gartersnake from Mt. Hamilton... no red/orange at all. In fact it looks more like a Diablo Gartersnake (actually, mor like a Mountain) than Coasts from across the Valley:



Here's a Diablo from 2 miles away... similar color, but different eyes and post nasal scale:



Another Coast with light orange flecks from the same area as the first:



Another Diablo from the same area as the second:



Just saying, I wouldn't go by color, but you got yourself some cool snakes.

Fascinating stuff, Owen. Those can definitely be confusing to someone just starting out at identifying Thamnophis, since the snakes in those photos have intermediate characteristics. I wonder if the two species hybridize there? The size of the sixth and seventh upper labial scales is supposed to be a good characteristic to distinguish the two species, but doesn't always work, as your photos show. Normally Coast Garters have the big scales and the Diablos don't, but your first Coastie has barely enlarged labial scales, while the last Diablo has huge ones! In your photos, it's pretty much just the internasal scales and overall head shape that gives them away.

Also, beautiful Coast Garter, Jim! Looks a lot like the blue Mountain Garters you can find in Napa County.

I hear ya Owen. I going on more than color though... a combination of factors (color being the first and foremost). I've found orange Gophersnakes, whitebellied Ringneck, Red Yellew-bellied Racer, Mountain Garters with orange dorsal stripes/yellow lateral as opposed to yellow dorsal/yellow lateral and other odd colored snakes. The difference with these, I've found no normal colored Sierra Gartersnakes in the same location with them. If I did, then I would have no doubt it was just a morph. Also, Sierra Garters have no subspecies, so there's no possibilty of them being intergrades/hybrids. Great Pics! Thanks for sharing.

Haha cool, think I'm going for a Thamnophis couchii oliva though... JK Great looking snake man! I'm quite the fan of blue colored herps. Instant favorite for me Have you found any others like this before?

Haha... "inevitable" sounds pretty accurate. I have told a couple people about the locale, but I haven't posted it on here. I'm going to keep it on a "need to know basis" until this thing is cleared up. I'll be honest, I'm kinda worried about jealous herpers going out there and messing with the location. I couldn't believe the negativity I was getting over this thing... I told Gary Nafis, whom I trust and I'm pretty sure I told Chad Lane (who I also trust) where I was heading to, the night before I found the snakes.

I did a little more reserch on the locale. I drove up there Saturday and spent the day thoroughly checking the area. Here's what I found:

Olive Sierra Garters with blue belly: 2
Olive Sierra Garters with blue mixed with little redish color belly: 5
Olive Sierra Garter with purple belly: 1
Mountain Gartersnakes: 9
Normal looking Sierra Garter Snakes: none

Originally, I found 2 blue bellies and 1 juvi with redish color. I was thinking the redish color might be something that fades with age, like Yellow-bellied Racers, Western skinks, ect... Now, I know it's just a variation between individuals, like the dorsal stripe (adult from the post's video has a more defined dorsal stripe than the patternless sub-adult and darker juvinile with more checkard pattern). One of the blue bellies I found on Saturday was a Juvi. All Sierra Gartersnakes had olive green ground color, brown eyes, and blue side/belly coloring. The ones with red coloration, had red mixed into the blue belly color. The more red each snake had, the more purple the belly looked. This didn't surprise me that much because the mountain Gartersnake I found (in the video and photographed in the post) also had a red/rusty colored belly. The red, I believe, is simpily mountain stream coloration found in snakes of higher elevation (better camouflage for mountain streams). The amount of red varried amoung each of the 9 idividual Mountain Garters, found on Saturday. I found no normal looking Sierra Gartersnakes. All were Olive and blue... or Olive and blue some red/rusty belly color as well.

"oliva" is much better. No animal should have to be burdened with two iis in its name.

I'm not going to ask where you found them, but I look forward to hearing how this all plays out.

That blue terrestris was the most blue I've seen in SC county.
I've seen others with some blue, but not like that.

Cool stuff, I need to make my way twards a Pudget Sound Garter one of these days! I'd love to find one of those. I be diggin the blues.
I doubt I'd be the person to name it... if so, I'd suggest olivia for sure Here are a few pics from saturdays find... 2 of the blue juvi and 1 of a blue and red mesh:


Blue belly by Porter78, on Flickr


Blue belly by Porter78, on Flickr


Blue and red belly by Porter78, on Flickr

I just noticed the blue juvi also has blue eyes... sweet. Couldnt see that at first because of the size of the snake. So all brown and 1 blue eyed.

Good luck. Most Puget Sound garters are not blue at all and some even look so close to fitchi that only range can tell them apart. There seems to be a general misconception that Pugets are blue since those are the ones most often pictured on the web. Truth is, blue is the exception. Just try convincing someone who thinks they have to be blue, that these are puget sound garters: (Vancouver Island, B.C.) They are.


Most aren't blue at all. Blue ones are only found a very small part of their range. (Near Ft. Lewis/Dupont, WA) Far more of them (and over a much larger area than the blue ones) are very pale greenish white. Still others have pale yellow or white stripes. Sometimes they have no lateral stripes and/or red spotting on the sides. Take away the red on the snakes above and you get an idea of what most puget sound garters look like, and it isn't blue.

Yeah, it's like the SC Garters... not all of them have that nice blue/green color or striped bellies...


SC Garter by Porter78, on Flickr


SC Garter by Porter78, on Flickr


I was wondering if I had actually found the melanistic population of couchii... anyone have photos of one of know what those look like?




.

Another coast garter with no red:



and yet in the same spot you'll find them looking like this:





The drastic differences aren't really all that surprising to me.

And yes, most of the atratus that I've seen do not look much like the ones you see available in the trade.

what do you mean by "trade?"

I mean "available for sale". I mean, captive bred.

The reason I asked is because... I thought only Cal Kings and Rubber Boas were the only snakes, "available to sale." Did that change?

Richard, I sent you a pm

*upper-left of page (new messages)

**if you continue to ignore me I will fill your box! Oh, wait... you're a dude!

In CA, you can legally sell, with a captive propagtion permit, CA kings, gophers, and rosy boas. Not rubber boas.

BUT, out of CA, you can sell most natives (for example, zonata can be sold and purchased anywhere except WA, OR, CA)...

Zach Lim wrote-
In CA, you can legally sell, with a captive propagtion permit, CA kings, gophers, and rosy boas.

Zach,
doesn't that only pertain to albinos?

El garia-
Good question. I was under the impression of that as well, that being only albinos, but I have a lot of friends in the CA native trade that has a permit and sells various non-albino rosies, cal kings, etc.

CAPTURE AND RELEASE!!!!
(or at least don't breed animals for profit!)

(...I wouldn't say this if it wasn't my post to express my opinion. What can I say, I just think it's wrong... doesn't mean I can't have a certain respect for those same people, for OTHER beliefs/reasons! PEACE TO ALL, to each their own).

I don't want to debate this issue again... I WON'T ..It makes me feel like this:






I think you can only sell Rubber B's if they are albino... Nat, set us straight!


.

You may have to take a break from the forums again if this starts again lol

Yeah, the albino's have always been legal to sell in CA for as long as I could remember. From what I've heard, pretty much anybody can get the breeders permit to sell Cal kings, Gophers, and Rosys. When you sell the offspring, you also provide a receipt with your permit number. I'm not sure if every snake has its own individual number or what. As long as a person has that paper with the permit number, they can legally resell that snake or keep as many of them as they want.

Don't ask her, she eats waxworms and likes them too.

I don't think there is such thing as an albino Rubber boa, but if there was, they would be legal to sell in this state as long as they were captive bred.

My point exactly



I prefer mine at the bottom of a bottle...

Yep, you're right... I remember that from a CRIS post (I think) about breeding regulations. Didn't remember all of it until I read your response Ross. I do remember the captive bred part specifically now.

Waxworms taste like almonds. Not bad.