Nafha Success story

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hellihooks
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Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

The Ca Chapter has been conducting herp surveys at Tejon Ranch for about three years... our data was instrumental in the acquisition of roughly 60,000 acres of conserved habitat.

Throughout Nafha's association with Tejon Ranch, a major goal has been to confirm the presence of both Rubber Boas and Zonata, neither of which have been documented. Finally, after several years of groundwork (scouting/ laying boards/carpet, surveying) Nafha has met those goals, confirming both Zonata and Rubber Boas at high elevations, yesterday May 6th, 2012. This was undoubtedly the most successful Tejon outing to date, led, as always, by our former Conservation Officer, Todd Battey. Big ups to Todd, for his years of professionalism, diligence, and hard work, on the Tejon Project.
Also... big ups to Fundad, who has focused his efforts at Tejon on the confirmation of these two species, provided the necessary experience to find them, and quite frankly... herped rings around us all... :shock: :thumb: It is very apropos that he was directly involved in both finds.... Great Job Brian... :thumb:
That's the good news... bad news is... this post is by me, a voucher-shot guy (with a badly scuffed lens) who only (for the most part) shoots what he finds... :roll: The Zonata sighting was visual, by our current Chapter Pres, Brian Hinds, and the lead Tejon representative, Mike... so, while no other data was secured (including photo vouchers) the observation and Id are 'rock solid'. I'm certain some great boa pics will be forthcoming.... :D

As for me, I had an OK day... 5 snakes found by me (but only 2 gophers vouchered) 2 Yellow blotch Ensatinas, and multiple sightings of both Gilberts and Skiltons Skinks. The striped racer I saw was at full speed (as in...phwww...GONE.. :shock: ) and the 2 C.o.oreganus I saw beat hasty retreats down into the rocks, out of camera range... :( Here's what I vouchered...

My first find was this very lively Skilton's Skink...and if I understand correctly, this and another found around the same time, are also the first Skiltons found in Tejon.
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Adult Gilberts
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Juvie...
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My 2 ensatinas... note the very symmetrical marking on the one...(i'm a big fan of symmetry ;) )
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Couple of small gophers I flipped...
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Saw plenty of Fence swifts and Side blotch Lizards, but only a few of the swifts stayed out long enough to get a voucher..
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I also had the pleasure of herping with a young man Brian mentors, named Brett, and was standing next to him when he flipped a very nice Ca King... at 5,800 ft... :shock: A VERY nice find! Good job Brett!
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Some of our younger herpers photographing the king...
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Todd, Nicholas, and Josh getting Boa shots...
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Thx to all our members who have contributed in the past, towards achieving these goals, and to everyone yesterday, for a great day in the field... :thumb: Jim Bass... regional VP.
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monklet
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by monklet »

Hooks wrote:Todd, Nicholas, and Josh getting Boa shots...
That's pretty cool 8-) What kind of boa was that by the way?
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

monklet wrote:
Hooks wrote:Todd, Nicholas, and Josh getting Boa shots...
That's pretty cool 8-) What kind of boa was that by the way?
As of yet... undetermined. From what I gathered...either a Northern Rubber... or the largest Dwarf Northern or Southern Clade, Richard Hoyer has ever seen... 22 in... :shock:
It was way cool getting to meet and herp with R. Hoyer... :thumb: jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by monklet »

Ya know Jim, it might have helped if I had read the intro :roll: BIG CONGRATS TEAM :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: ..on those two three very nice records. What elevations where the zonata and boa at respectively?
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

The zonata and rubber boa were both found in the same area at around 6200 feet.

6200 feet, not 5800 feet, btw, was also the elevation at which Brett found his Cal King. According to Fundad, that's the highest elevation Cal King he's personally seen in 30 years of herping (though they have been recorded at higher elevations by others). Fantastic find, Brett :thumb:

I will post some pictures of all the goodies later, once I've had a chance to upload them.

Robert
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shredsteban
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by shredsteban »

Congratulations! This is truly incredible and inspirational work!!! :beer: :beer:
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Jeff Lemm
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeff Lemm »

Nice work gents, so bummed I missed it. On a high note, I found a cal king this weekend at 6100 feet!
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

Here, finally, are some pictures to go with the story:

Yellow-Blotched Ensatina

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Gophersnakes

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Brett's California Kingsnake

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Ringneck Snake

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And, the best for last:

Rubber Boa

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As Jim already pointed out, Brian (Fundad) and Mike (of the Tejon Ranch Conservancy) also found a California Mountain Kingsnake. They had just flipped two large California Striped Racers under a rock, when Mike spotted a sizable zonata moving past a hole too small to put a hand into. Brian furiously worked his way into the ground and briefly got hold of the tail of the snake before it managed to writhe out of his grip to disappear for good. Still, the sighting is as solid as can be, and it's only a matter of time now that we voucher a zonata on TR. We'll have to try again next spring.

The group also found Western Skinks and Gilbert's Skinks, but Nick didn't get any pictures of them. Hopefully, others will post some of their skink shots here. As far as I know, these were the first Western Skinks to be recorded on TR.

All in all, this survey was a turning point, bringing to a successful end a search for Rubber Boas that had begun several years ago. It provides the Tejon Ranch Conservancy with valuable ammunition for their ongoing conservation efforts, Richard Hoyer with a long sought-after specimen for his research, and the NAFHA with some hard-earned field credentials, not to mention a spectacular field herping experience.

Finally, I want to point out that the success of this survey was due, to an overwhelming extent, to Brian's unmatched herping skills. It's not just that he found both the Rubber Boa and the zonata. Several times, he'd walk through the same section of an outcropping others, including myself, had just worked through, to find several snakes, mostly gophersnakes, that all of us had missed. The lesson that I personally came away with yesterday was that I need to try much, much harder when flipping rocks. As Brian said, "if sweat is not running down your arms, you're not doing it right." Thanks for the lesson, Brian :!:

I hope we'll be able to go back to TR soon. Personally, I would like to confirm the presence of Sierra Gartersnakes on the ranch. According to Stebbins, Thamnophis couchii hybridizes with Thamnophis hammondi in the Western Tehachapis - i.e., on Tejon Ranch. So, we might even be able to find some hybrids.

Robert
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Fundad »

It was an honor to have the opportunity to partake in this awesome experience.

A couple things..

First off a huge thanks to Mike White with the Tejon Conservancy, for allowing us to help with the survey of the ranch, and for pre scouting the new places we searched this time. Good Job Mike..

Second of All it is Todd Battey's efforts, persistence, patience, and dedication to the ranch surveys, along with his dedication to believing we could find these species with effort, that made these two discoveries happen. Without his efforts there would
have been NO mtn king or Rubber Boa find.

And thank you to all involved in the surveys, if not for you, none of this would have happened either. And it was a pure joy to share the excitement and the experience with everyone.

It was a day, I won't soon forget.

I will share some of my experiences tomorrow.

California Chapter President
Fundad

PS Robert we have already recorded those garter snakes on the ranch. And thanks for the kind words Jim and Robert.

Also Congrats to Brett (Who is a herping machine) on his Cal King find.. I am proud of your efforts, as always.
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by M.J.FRANETOVICH »

This is a awesome story!!! Great work by all :thumb: 22 inch Wow :shock: that is super cool....FUNDAD Congrats :beer:



Mel
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by M.J.FRANETOVICH »

How does a person get invited to such a outing? Or do you just show up?
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Jeroen Speybroeck
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

As trivial as they may seem, I really like those candy-coloured Ensatinas...
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Calfirecap »

Outstanding, you guys must have been so stoked! Sounds like another trip is in order for that specific area. Well done.
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:As trivial as they may seem, I really like those candy-coloured Ensatinas...
Actually... all the Yellow blotches we vouchered were from areas where YB's have not previously been recorded, extending their range within the Mt range considerably. And for me... only the 3rd and 4th I've found, so, not trivial at all... :D

Mel... just Pm Todd and say you'd like to attend... and bring your License...

Lawrence... a norcal crew would be very welcome... bout a 5 hr drive, from BC... :thumb: jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeroen Speybroeck »

hellihooks wrote:not trivial at all... :D
My bad :oops:
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by JAMAUGHN »

Fantastic story, and fantastic finds! Congratulations, everybody. Lawrence, if you decide to make a trip down for one of these outings, please let me know.

JimM
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by M.J.FRANETOVICH »

:thumb:
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
hellihooks wrote:not trivial at all... :D
My bad :oops:
Well... compared to the Z and Rubber, perhaps not that important... but I was very happy to find them... although MY main target was B. stebbensi which I did not get to see. :( Next time, perhaps. The Skiltons skinks were somewhat significant, as well... saw several blue-tailed juvies, that eluded me. I WAS very pleased with the pink tail juvie Gilberti... ALWAYS a cool find... :thumb: jim

@ the team... did I get the Ele correct on Brett's Ca. King? 5,800? jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

Robert we have already recorded those garter snakes on the ranch.
Hmm, I didn't know that, Brian. Must have been before my time. But maybe, we could try for a different area and, as I said, we might try for hybrids.
I really like those candy-coloured Ensatinas...
We do too, Jeroen. They would have been even more candy-colored if Nick hadn't inadvertently set the white balance to "full sunlight." The WB button is for some reason prominently featured on the back of the camera, and this is the second time that Nick accidentally pressed it without realizing it for the rest of the day. Luckily, all of the other shots were taken in full sunlight.
@ the team... did I get the Ele correct on Brett's Ca. King? 5,800? jim
Jim, Brett found the King along the same ridge where the rubber boa and zonata was found, and that was at about 6,200 feet, maybe a tad less.

Robert
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

Hmmm... the outcrop where the king was found, one ridge over from the Rubber/Z crop, was actually higher than it seemed... I'd say (at most) 25- 50 ft lower... 6,150? Beat Lemm's hi-ele king... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: :lol: either way... both VERY high for Ca. Kings (far as I know) :roll: :D I'd like to get back up to that White Wolf area, again. Z's/Rubbers up there as well? :D jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeff Lemm »

Get on google earth and find your spot and back up the elevation locale. Handhelds are never close. We have a GIS lab and I will be doing the same on the high-end GE we have; let me know, this is a write-up
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Fundad »

Oh give it to Brett, your already famous.. :lol: :lol:

Fundad
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

Get on google earth and find your spot and back up the elevation locale
That's exactly what I did. I am pretty sure I picked the right spot on GoogleEarth, but it's at least possible I made a mistake since I didn't have a GPS on location to mark the spot. I had to find the spot on GoogleEarth based on memory, which was not that hard though because the rock outcrops are so close to the road and there are only a few outcrops near the road in the area.

But just to be sure, could someone who did get a GPS reading please enter the coordinates in GE and confirm ~6200 feet?

Thanks,

Robert
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Jeff Lemm
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeff Lemm »

lol, I don't care who gets it, I just wanna see someone write it up!!!
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Fundad »

lol, I don't care who gets it, I just wanna see someone write it up!!!
I was kidding of course.. It should go to the highest one, no handicaps for the youngsters..

Fundad
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeff Lemm »

Because they are so close they can be written together; especially since they are from different counties
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

By 'write up'... do you mean as a note for Herp Review? Send me your info Jeff... I'll write them up as concurrent finds.
Brian... find your spot for the Z/Rubber...I'm sure Brett can scroll over to bout the exact rock (it was half the size of a manhole cover...Brett flipped it himself, held it with one hand, scooped the King with the other, and lowered the rock back down one-handed...I WAS impressed :D ) and send me Brett's info, so he can get credit... :thumb: jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by repaphin »

Good job! :thumb: to bad theres no pictures of that Zonata. For now its a Fish story :lol:
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Jeff Lemm »

Yes, a HR note. I'm already on it Jim; if Brett and whoever else wants to do it together, have them contact me.
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

Cool! I hope Brian sends you Brett's info and other related data... so cool for a youngster to get that recognition. If anyone has a problem with his age/veracity issues, ANYTHING... I personally witnessed the young man make the find, and collaborate it.

Wouldn't several of the finds at Tejon rate notes? the Z, Rubber, and possibly the Skiltons? (need to research that one)

3 noteworthy finds... now THAT'S an outing! :thumb: jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Biker Dave »

Great job CA Chapter!

Dave Weber
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by El Garia »

hellihooks wrote:
3 noteworthy finds... now THAT'S an outing! :thumb: jim
Muy excellente, amigos! :beer:
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

Did I mention to anyone that I also saw 2 sagebrush lizards? I did. MIGHT have a pic of one. Anyone working on a total species count?
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

Anyone working on a total species count?
Well, let's see:

Snakes:
Rubber Boa
Zonata
Gopher
Striped Racer
Ringneck
Calking

Lizards:
Fence
Uta (?)
Sagebrush
Western Skink
Gilbert's Skink

Amphibians:
Yellow-Blotched Ensatina

Total: 12

Did I miss any?

Robert
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

I saw 2 oreganus but I also meant totals, both vouchered and 'seen'

Oreganus... 2
Pituophis...2 (vouchered)
ensatina...2 (vouchered)
Gilberts... 4 (vouchered)
Skiltons... 2 (vouchered)
Fence...8 (vouchered)
Sagebrush ...2
Striped Racer...1

Isn't it customary to quantify our data?

Jim
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Ted »

Sorry for being so sow to post on this, been feeling under the weather since then. Despite the fact that I was feeling terrible on that outing (absolutely horrible allergies that lasted a couple days after) I thoroughly enjoyed the outing. I still have yet to download my pics, but they should be up tomorrow sometime.

Robert, I definitely saw some Utas. Also, I found a bunch of tadpoles which I will need an ID on when I put the photos up, those should be added to the species count.

From what I heard, the king was found at 6200, but I'm not too sure how accurate that might be. Probably a good idea to double-check it.
hellihooks wrote:Cool! I hope Brian sends you Brett's info and other related data... so cool for a youngster to get that recognition. If anyone has a problem with his age/veracity issues, ANYTHING... I personally witnessed the young man make the find, and collaborate it.
I can back that up as well.

Great finds, all! I would definitely be up for more opportunities for trips for whatever reason. Great to meet so many people, and nice to see you again to the people I had previously met! :beer:
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Porter »

Cool post :thumb: Congrats on all the work done there... and with the boa and zonata find (Brian). Nice post Jim, always a pleasure to see some red-tailed skink shots. Great Ensatina shots and pariscoping gopher (trippy looking eyes and I'm diggin the back drop in the shot, color and balance), Robert :thumb: The Boa looks like he hasn't had any pressure from predators... ever. Cleanest Rubber Boa I've ever seen :mrgreen: nice post
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

I'm diggin the back drop in the shot, color and balance), Robert
Richard, thanks for the compliments. Always means a lot coming from you. However: These are all Nick's shots. But maybe, you already knew that.

Robert
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Fundad »

The Boa looks like he hasn't had any pressure from predators... ever. Cleanest Rubber Boa I've ever seen :mrgreen: nice post
The most interesting thing about that, is Richard Hoyer said it might be the second largest Dwarf boa he has seen to date. He can chime in here and correct me if I am wrong. I thing 22 inches or something like that, which would make that boa over 10 years old..

Fundad

PS thanks for the kind words.
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by hellihooks »

I went to Gary's site, and he has both Northern and Southern Rubbers listed as ocurring in the Techachapi's. And I know (or heard) that some are considered dwarf northerns, some are southern clade (KM) I'm sure it will be a while before we know for sure what we found (genetically) but.... dwarf northerns more to the west, southern clade more eastern Sierra? Ours would seem to be right in the middle? Too big for Southern, huge for a Dwarf... relict pop of Northern?
Inquiring minds want to know.
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by FunkyRes »

Jeff Lemm wrote:Get on google earth and find your spot and back up the elevation locale. Handhelds are never close. We have a GIS lab and I will be doing the same on the high-end GE we have; let me know, this is a write-up
If you have your waypoints in gpx format you can also pass your gpx file through http://www.gpsvisualizer.com/elevation

It will output a surface elevation corrected gpx. For me it has never differed from what google earth says for same coords by more than a foot and usually is identical (I suspect they use the same data set with occasional slight differences in extrapolation method).

I always pass my gpx files through gpsvisualizer before uploading data.
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Ted »

Here's some of my pics

Image
DSC_0112 by Ted306, on Flickr

Bad pic of the Rubber Boa
Image
DSC_0106 by Ted306, on Flickr

Brett's King
Image
DSC_0096 by Ted306, on Flickr

Image
DSC_0090 by Ted306, on Flickr

Image
DSC_0036 by Ted306, on Flickr

Image
DSC_0031 by Ted306, on Flickr

If anyone can ID these I'd be very grateful
Image
DSC_0022 by Ted306, on Flickr

Image
DSC_0001 by Ted306, on Flickr
Richard F. Hoyer
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

The Tejon Ranch herpetofauna survey on May 6th is an example of good organizational preparation (Todd Battey, Mike White, others?), followed by what can only be characterized
as a solid 'team effort' (Jim Bass, Brian Hinds, Todd Battey, and all other May 6th participants).

As for finding the Rubber Boa in that part of the Tehachapi Mts. on Tejon Ranch property, for those like myself who embrace the concept of habitat association, it was almost a given
that the species occurred on the ranch. The fact that the species is known to occur on Mt. Pinos to the west and the adjacent main Tehachapi Range to the northeast at around 6000 ft. and above was another strong indicator that the species should occur at similar elevations on ranch property.

After striking out the first two years, I was pleased that this third time was a charm and was equally please at having been invited and able to participate.

Yesterday I completed recording data on the Tejon Ranch female. Her totlal length is 22 1/4 inches which matches the largest female member of the dwarf phenotype I have yet to examine. One female from Mt. Pinos measured 22 1/4 inches and a female from Breckenridge Mt. maintained for about 10 years by Robert Hansen measured about the same length.

Richard F. Hoyer
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Ross Padilla »

That Cal king is Nice!

Nice shots, RobertH. :thumb:
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

With respect to the taxonomy of the Rubber Boa, the following information updates yet to be published information that has emerged the past decade or so.

But first a review of sorts. From about the mid 1970s up until 2001, two subspecies of the Rubber Boa were generally recognized, the Northern Rubber Boa and Southern Rubber Boa subspecies. The distribution of the SRB subspecies is confined to the San Bernardino and San Jacinto Mts. Thus, the distribution of the Northern Rubber Boa subspecies included the rest of the species' distribution in N. America. That means that the boa populations on Mt. Pinos (and associated peaks west of the I-5 corridor), the Tehachapi Mts., and the species distribution north and northeast of those localities all have been considered members of the northern subspecies. It therefore follows that one can assume that the Tejon Ranch boa population would also belong to the northern subspecies.

The above accepted taxonomic arrangement changed as of 2001. In the molecular (mtDNA) study published in 2001 by Rodriguez-Robles, Stewart, and Papenfuss, the authors urged elevating the SRB subspecies to species level distinction. I believe most of the professional herpetological community adopted that new arrangement. But by 2000, I was aware of some inconsistencies so I considered the elevation of the SRB to species level distinction as being premature.

For instance, by 2000, I had accumulated data on a representative sample of the species from the Tehachapi Mts. along with data on a few specimens from Mt. Pinos. It appeared
there was considerable overlap of key morphological features between those two populations and the SRB population in the San Bernardino Mts. Nothing much can be said about the SRB population in the San Jacinto Mts. as only about 6 voucher specimens are in existence and that population has never been studied. In 2003, I offered to do a study of that population similar to my effort on the SRB population in the San Bernardino Mts. but the CDFG official in charge at the time turned down my proposal.

For those that have a copy of the Rodriguez-Robles paper, you might note there is a void of data of a morphological nature. The paper is an excellent contribution with respect to the detailed mtDNA findings that identified the Southern Rubber Boa as belonging to a southern clade with considerable divergence in its mtDNA signatures from all other populations the senior author tested and which he designated as belonging to the northern clade. To the authors credit, it can be noted on page 234 of that publication, they alluded to problems with their scheme with respect to the Mt. Pinos and the Tehachapi boa populations.

The Rodriguez- Robles paper indicates there are three key morphological features that characterize the S. Rubber Boa as being distinct from the N. Rubber Boa. Those traits are 196 or fewer full size ventrals, a maximum mid-body scale row count of 41 or less, and a frontal plate that is usually sub-rectangular with a straight or only slightly convex or angular posterior margin. The authors mention that (quote); "Agreement with any two of these three characters is likely to render a correct identification:"

That scheme works exceedingly well when boas from the mid Sierra Nevada Mts. or the Bay Area of Calif. are being assessed with respect to those three key characteristics. But consider the following: Of the 42 specimen from Mt. Pinos on which I have recorded data, in accordance with the conditions specified in the Rodriguez-Robles paper, 16 of those 42 boas or 38.1% would key out to be Southern Rubber Boas. Had the authors known about this situation, I seriously doubt they would have gone forward with suggesting the SRB be elevated to the species level.

And two additional pieces of information have emerged that tend to add uncertainty to the current taxonomic status of the Rubber Boa. During the 1993 - 1997 study of the SRB population in the San Bernardino Mts., we confirmed that those boas were a stunted or dwarf form of the species. Males and females SRBs reach maximum total lengths of about 19 1/2 inches and 22 inches respectively. Representative samples from all other boa populations from central Tulare County on north and northeast that I have examined (live and preserved) have females that measure at, or in excess of 25 inches and males at, or in excess of 21 inches. Differences in the range of weights and lengths of neonates also characterize the difference between the two size morphs.

Since Dr. Stewart and myself publishing our two papers on the SRB in 2000, I have found that this dwarf phenotype occurs throughout S. Calif. from the southern Sierra Nevada Mts. (southern Greenhorn Mts.and S. Kern Plateau) on south. That means that the Northern Rubber Boa consists of populations that are both of the large and dwarf morph phenotypes.
Currently, the Southern Rubber Boa contains the one population in the San Bernardino Mts. that is known to be of the dwarf form. By geographical proximity, it is assumed that the San Jacinto boa population is also of the dwarf form. So at the present time, all known populations of the dwarf phenotype are clustered in S. Calif. with the large phenotype occurring everywhere else in the species' distribution.

Secondly, as of about two years ago, a second, more extensive molecular (mtDNA) study was completed on the Rubber Boa by Dr. Glenn Stewart's last grad student, Richard Toshima. It is my view that Rick's results tend to muddle the taxonomic picture even further. The most striking results of his study demonstrated that the dwarf morph boa population that occurs on the S. Kern Plateau of southern Tulare County aligns with the southern clade along with the two SRB populations in the San Jacinto and San Bernardino Mts.

Similar to the dwarf morph boas on Mt. Pinos, the S. Kern Plateau boas superficially are indistinguishable from the Southern Rubber Boas in the San Bernardino Mts. And since Rick's result indicated the S. Kern Plateau boas nested with the southern clade, Rick and Dr. Stewart's first inclination was to identify that population as being Southern Rubber Boas. However, by using the key contained and conditions specified in the Rodriguez-Robles paper, 58.8 % (10 of 17) of the S. Kern Plateau boas key out to be Northern Rubber Boas. I could be wrong but I believe the above information may have taxonomists searching for explanations.

Richard F. Hoyer
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M.J.FRANETOVICH
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by M.J.FRANETOVICH »

Does anyone have any pictures of the zonata I really want to see what it looks like!!
Thanks :thumb:
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Biker Dave
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Biker Dave »

Richard

After reading your analysis of the SRB and NRB situation I too am confused! So I can only imagine how the scientific community is dealing with the problem!

Dave
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by Richard F. Hoyer »

Jim Bass:
When you mention going to 'Gary's site', I am not familiar with it or what information it may contain.

But I hope the overview I posted yesterday will clarify where the two different subspecies occur in Calif. and where the two different size phenotypes are found in Calif.

Richard F. Hoyer
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by RobertH »

Richard,

Thank you so much for taking time to provide such a detailed account of where the taxonomic debate regarding Northern and Southern Rubber boas currently stands. This is the first time that I am beginning to understand the problem. Fascinating.

"Gary's site" refers to www.californiaherps.com, an online guide to reptiles and amphibians of California created by amateur herpetologist and NAFHA member Gary Nafis. There, you will find a page with information and pictures dedicated to each CA species, including the Northern Rubber Boa and Southern Rubber Boa:

Northern Rubber Boa: http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/p ... ottae.html

Southern Rubber Boas: http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/p ... atica.html

Robert
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Re: Nafha Success story

Post by monklet »

Thanks so much Mr. Hoyer for taking the time and effort to compose such lucid and detailed description of the NRB/SRB conundrum :thumb: :thumb: :thumb: 8-)

Brad
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