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Sean
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Post by Sean »

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Jimi
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Jimi »

Not answering your question directly but offering some context, or info you might find interesting-

"The story" I heard while working in/for FL was that panhandle GT's had largely been eaten out by "the Crackers" back in the day. And on occasion there were still piles of +/- fresh turtle shells (GTs, cooters, etc) found near trailers in the woods or whatever. One old Cracker nickname for GT was "Hoover chicken"; Hoover as in the president (1929-1933) who usually gets the blame for the Great Depression. Which is of course absurd but I digress...but the name illustrates the table-worthiness of the animal I guess.

One could imagine that under such a thorough extirpation scenario, and given GT life history, it could be a long, long time for natural recolonization to occur into & across the region. Especially with all the busier & busier highways, intensifying development of remaining undeveloped-yet-"unprotected" uplands, inadequate fire management of many "protected" uplands, numerous (& in places wide!) north-south corridors of rivers & associated wet shady habitats, fire ants feral hogs etc etc etc. It's almost as if the region were "fenced off" from stronger GT populations further east and south.

A couple of bright spots exist however:
1) FL's ~2007 GT management plan created a whole new incentive system for private-lands GT conservation, by a) eliminating legal large-scale direct killing of GTs while intensifying land use (e.g., changing a property's use from pasture to residential), b) requiring instead the translocation of GTs from the "donor site" to an approved "recipient site", and c) creating a matchmaking & tracking system to help would-be donors & recipients locate each other, and then letting market forces find the price for receiving GTs onto one's land.

The recession no doubt hurt prices (not an entirely bad thing...), but when I left FL in 2008 the going rate a landowner could get for taking a GT was about $900. I'm skipping lots of detail here, I'm sure all kinds of negative conclusions could be jumped to, but believe me when I say all in all this was a stupendous achievement for GT conservation, voluntary dry uplands conservation, landowners who needed some more options to avoid "selling out" to developers, and the institution of wildlife management. Basically at the maximum level of GT "reception" (4/ac for the best-quality unoccupied habitat), a landowner would be looking at earning the same amount of money for accepting GTs and then managing their habitat (basically, keeping the trees from taking over) as he might get offered by a developer. That's how the math worked back in 2007-8 anyway. I have no idea what prices for anything (land, turtles, gallon of milk...) are now, in FL. The beauty of the system is, when development pressure cranks up, so does the incentive system. (Anybody out there approaching retirement age want to move to the FL boonies and become a turtle rancher? Ha ha.)

2) Restoring GTs to the panhandle, largely via the mechanism outlined above, was (when I left FWC) being invoked as a crucial strategic prerequisite to recovering indigos & other GT burrow commensals to the panhandle. The ongoing 2nd-time-around Conecuh indigo repatriation project, and some other work sponsored by Project Orianne, will hopefully generate some useful techniques for this long-term recovery strategy.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Greg Theos
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Greg Theos »

It sounds like the question you are really asking is "Where can I find Pine Snakes and EDB's in the ANF?" I hope that noone is foolish enough to divulge that information to you or anyone else.
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gbin
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by gbin »

Your concern is understandable, Greg, but despite his oddly low post count, Sean has been an active participant in this community for a long time, is personally known by quite a few of us and is very clearly one of the good guys, both in terms of not abusing the resource himself and not sharing sensitive information about the resource with others.

I'd offer you advice on your question, Sean, but the only gopher tortoise strongholds I know about are on the peninsula rather than the panhandle, likely at least in part because of what Jimi laid out.

Good post, Jimi.

Gerry
Sean
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Sean »

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Sean
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Sean »

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Celinder72
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Celinder72 »

Greg Theos wrote:It sounds like the question you are really asking is "Where can I find Pine Snakes and EDB's in the ANF?" I hope that noone is foolish enough to divulge that information to you or anyone else.
Hi Sean! I am honored to provide you with such information. New reports of Gopher Tortoise sightings in Syria! You are the chosen FHF ambassador! May Allah, Mitt Romney and the Pope bless you in this courageous endeavor! Good luck .
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gbin
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by gbin »

Celinder72 wrote:Hi Sean! I am honored to provide you with such information. New reports of Gopher Tortoise sightings in Syria! You are the chosen FHF ambassador! May Allah, Mitt Romney and the Pope bless you in this courageous endeavor! Good luck .
I guess a couple of people are concerned because you've collected a few Apalachicola kings in the past several years, eh, Sean? Don't worry, plenty of us don't see anything irresponsible or otherwise wrong in your legally taking a small number of animals of a species in which you've had a particular and long-standing interest, and which you've worked very hard to find. And we hope that the animals in your captive program are thriving for you, too!

Gerry
Sean
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Sean »

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JakeScott
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by JakeScott »

Jeez, and an active burrow at that. I don't see how that's legal unless they were permitted AFTER the removal of the torts.

-Jake
Reptiluvr
Posts: 258
Joined: April 23rd, 2011, 7:49 pm

Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Reptiluvr »

I have never seen a Gopher Tortose in ANF but I have seen a handful of burrows. Three were in one spot on the NE edge near Tallahassee. One was just a couple miles east of the Apalachicola River. I'll PM you more details.
Reptiluvr
Posts: 258
Joined: April 23rd, 2011, 7:49 pm

Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Reptiluvr »

Sean for whatever reason the forum is not even posting a link to be able to PM you. I can PM all other posters on this thread though. PM me and I'll tell you my meager findings.
Jimi
Posts: 1955
Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Jimi »

For anyone interested, the FWC GT page is at: http://myfwc.com/GopherTortoise

The 2007 management plan can be downloaded from: http://myfwc.com/wildlifehabitats/manag ... ment-plan/

Note there's a public-comment period open right now, for revising the plan:
Comments will be accepted until 11:59 p.m. (EDT), June 25, 2012.
Like most "fish and game" agencies around the country, FWC revises all its management plans (species, WMAs, etc) at intervals not to exceed 5 years. There's always a time and place for public participation in that revision process. And no, it's not a complete load of BS, although it does require an informed, engaged citizenry to function correctly. Otherwise...yeah it can be a load of BS. (In my experience, people the world over like to complain more than they like to work, but I digress once again...)

Here's some verbiage on the 2007-version recipient site stuff: http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/gophe ... ient-site/

Gopher tortoises are a classic "conflict species". They historically occupied virtually all lands also suitable for habitation by humans; they don't like floods and mud and neither do we. Since no new land is being built, it's either a zero-sum game (we gain/take, they lose/"give"), or we cohabitate. You might think that cohabitation wouldn't be so hard but you'd be amazed how many people call and say "come get this damn turtle off my land!". GTs just love to eat little-old-lady flowers. Also many horse owners think their animals are so stupid and/or fragile they're absolutely bound to step in a burrow and break a leg. Most cattlemen are a little easier to work with - especially with the new recipient-site funding program.

Anyway...GT conservation also offers a chance to conserve a lot of other wildlife, and of course habitat. If you live in FL and want to do some good, this is a place to plug in. It's not for the faint of heart, there are strong feelings, deep history, and real money involved. But it's a place you can make a real difference. And maybe find a job or a place to volunteer too, if that suits you. For example, you can become an "authorized GT agent": http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/gophe ... zed-agent/

Cheers,
Jimi
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Greg Theos
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Greg Theos »

My comment had absolutely nothing to do with his decision to collect kingsnakes or any other snake, and it was not directed specifically at him.

To (sort of) answer the original question, there are at least two areas within the ANF (and another a few miles outside, not including the big one to the north) that support fairly dense populations of gopher tortoises. I tell you this simply to relieve, or perhaps fuel your curiosity. I trust you will not be anticipating a PM from me.

As for the panther, according to the locals in Carrabelle I spoke with, it was "black". Perplexing, but possible.
Sean
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Sean »

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Sean
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Sean »

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Jimi
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Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by Jimi »

As for the panther, according to the locals in Carrabelle I spoke with, it was "black". Perplexing, but possible.
In Florida, for some reason it's always a "black panther" when reported. On the other hand, a melanistic Felis concolor has never actually been recorded by a mammalogist (as far as I know; leopards and jaguars sure...puma/cougar, no). I always thought it was some cracker conflation of bugaboos...but I'm just an elitist liberal bureaucrat bastard right?, ha ha.

I was shown many pictures of black dogs and black housecats by locals who brought them in to prove their "black panther" claims. Never an actual panther photo, black or otherwise. You might be surprised by this, but by the time someone has convinced their self of something to the point they're trying to prove it to other people...you just can't tell them anything ("Um sir, do you see the collar there? I think it's someone's black lab. I hope you didn't shoot her.") It can be immensely difficult to be patient and polite in such a situation, particularly when the folks who are wasting your time are the very same ones who bitch a blue streak about government waste fraud and abuse. But you have to be unflappably patient and polite if you're a public employee. I was lucky to never snap...guess I left in time, ha ha.
Obviously they cleared/leveled the land before all/if any of the GT were removed. I doubt any were IMO.

Maybe. I mean yeah, that happens. All the time. Lots of people disregard or are unaware of the law. Or - perhaps no law was actually broken - see below.
When I made calls to proper organizations, nobody really seemed to give a "crap" about it.
Yeah, unfortunately that happens too. There are many possible reasons. Some nefarious, some not. Some days you just can't take another "concerned citizen" call. And sometimes the initial malefactor was the sheriff's cousin or something. People are human...or as I say on my dark days, large aggressive monkeys with way-too-big brains.
Thanks for the info from the FWC site. Maybe they've upped their interest with the conservation on the GT since 2005. But it still perplexes me that a piece of property with that many burrows wasn't shown any interest in helping/saving those GT.
By 2005 GT interest was already extremely high. It has only increased since then. No maybe about it.

I don't recall from your original post how many burrows you saw. I do recall there being an initial dichotomy in the permitting process - a) 10 or fewer burrows, or b) more than 10. With the smaller number there's way less regulation. With the big number, lots of regulation. The GT plan was done with A TON!!! of stakeholder participation. There were 2 parallel teams. One was a science & management team. Stakeholders comprised the other (advisory) team, and it included "turtle huggers", large developers, ranchers, soccer moms, and what-have-you. If they wanted to participate and were willing to WORK not just bitch, they had a seat at the table. You might be surprised how hard it can be to keep a lot of full seats at a working table...the world is just infested with lazy complainers. Steady-freddy unpaid workers are hard to come by.

So anyway, the 2 teams did not want to enrage the entire landowning populace of Florida with more "intrusive government regulation" (which is exactly what was under discussion...), but they did want to do something meaningful for GT conservation (and thus avoid a federal listing of eastern GTs). So they decided to impose the most burden on those doing the most damage, and not require Joe Homeowner to relocate off-site his one or 2 resident tortoises. Pretty fair, really. They stopped allowing any live burial of GTs, but the homeowner could catch his own (we'd talk them through how to do it, right over the phone) and basically stash the turtle on-site until he got his new foundation dug & poured or whatever. The developer of a large or high-quality site with more than 10 burrows had to hire an authorized GT agent and either pay someone else to accept them on their own property, or relocate them elsewhere in suitable habitat on property he owned "nearby" (onsite, or within 100 miles). At least that's my memory. If you're curious have a look at the plan.
Another thing. FWC has quite a few videos on YT they've put up advertising various areas around Florida and they seem to be targeting hunting as a main attraction to these lands. I find it ironic that the piece of property I showed above was sold and is now a hunting camp.
Hunting is a main attraction to those lands. How many people who don't hunt do you think really get outside much there? All the huffing puffing fatties down at the mall? The kids with their screen gadgets and a mouth & pocket full of sugar-dope? Also - state wildlife agencies have people and bills to pay. Hunters & fishermen provide almost all the money, directly through license sales (usually about half an agency budget), and indirectly through excise taxes on guns, ammo, rods & reels etc (usually about a quarter of an agency's annual budget). I don't like it either but that's the way it is. If you can convince your legislature to come up with something else, my hat is off to you and I will stay out of your way. Now get after it.

At least a hunt camp isn't all paved - I mean, keeping some woods to hunt in is the very point (unless the point is to just have a private place for outrageous drunken stag parties...ahem). And a hunt camp should have zero GT conflict issues. If anything, having a little bit of mowed grass, and keeping the woods beat down some around the edges, will be good for any resident GTs. It'll be hard on any EDBs but...that's how it goes. It's hard to successfully promote tolerance of rattlesnakes, especially huge ones. It's a slow process...but I think some progress is being made. There are now a half dozen or so crackers who will skip a chance to kill a snake now and then...ha ha. I use that number because that's about how many calls I received in 4 years at the Ocala regional office to come deal with a legitimately dangerous snake under someone's trailer in the woods (I always did, praised them profusely for their tolerance and wisdom, and gave them a nice "snake talk" once I had the animal safely tucked in a trash can in the shade). People mostly took care of it themselves I presume. Once in a while someone got hurt, like the off-duty fireman in Palatka who was fatally envenomated (it took a week...) by the half an EDB head he hadn't yet blown off...but I digress once again...

Cheers,
Jimi
chance37
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Re: Gopher Tortoise/burrows in the ANF

Post by chance37 »

Sean I got a can of gasoline and a 12 foot hose lets get to gassing for them there pine snakes and copperheaded diamondbacks.....I laughed when they made it illegal to gas...I gurantee that catching somone breaking this law is of TOP priority...An ESA listing would be great, god knows how long the feds are gonna sit on that petition...As far as eating turtles Id bet if you polled wakulla county you would find that 99% of people couldnt tell you the differnece between an alligator snapping turtle and a gopher tortoise....Sad but true...where is the edumacation at for petes sake.....I know the weather has everything acting a little odd.....but Id swear that the racers and coachwhips in wakulla county have eaten every other snake...Whigham roundup had 36 snakes turned in...Their excuse was that it was too hot this past winter so none of the snakes were in burrows....One the snakes seek burrows to escape heat not just cold.....two, you idiots just told on yourselves....only one way to find that they werent in burrows...The fact that this years biggest speciman was less than the average weight 20 years ago has nothing to do with pressure on the species..
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