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 Post subject: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 8:51 am 

Joined: April 9th, 2011, 4:40 pm
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Location: North LA County
I was checking some videos of this guy that I'm subscribed to on youtube and came across this video of a Cal King he claims to have found at 7,400 ft in the Panamint Range. I thought it's arboreal behavior was pretty fascinating too.

click the little youtube logo on the video to read the description if you want.



My question is, do you guys think this is an elevation record for Cal Kings? Does anyone have any other interesting high elevation finds? I double checked Brian Hubb's book on common kings and he said the highest (known) find was at 7,138 ft at a locale in the Eastern Sierra.

The guy makes some pretty cool songs to critters he finds in the desert, by the way. Here's one of a boa he found in the northern Mojave.



Thought someone might find this interesting.


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 9:43 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
At the Tejon outing last year, Brent (Fundad's psudo-son?) flipped a cal king at 6100 (?) and at the same time J. Lemm found on at the same elevation, at another range further south. My understanding is he submitted them both as a note, to Herp Review, as new elevation records for Cal King. :thumb: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 11:34 am 

Joined: April 9th, 2011, 4:40 pm
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Location: North LA County
hellihooks wrote:
At the Tejon outing last year, Brent (Fundad's psudo-son?) flipped a cal king at 6100 (?) and at the same time J. Lemm found on at the same elevation, at another range further south. My understanding is he submitted them both as a note, to Herp Review, as new elevation records for Cal King. :thumb: jim


Very cool flip, got any pics of that? I tried doing a search but can't seem to bring anything up. I remember a post being made last year, the same survey you guys found the first rubber boa in that part of the range right, and a zonata?

That guy in the video should enter his find with the video as a voucher if the elevation is indeed accurate since it could possibly be a new elevation record right?

This makes me wonder if there are remnant populations of zonata in the Panamints or the White Mountains area (east of Bishop). I've been to the ancient bristlecone forest in that area a few years ago and it's very dry compared to the Sierras but the White Mountains are also fairly close (relatively speaking) to the Sierra, and was once much wetter at one point in time so who knows...


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 1:32 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:41 am
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Location: "Buy My Books"-land
A couple questions. 1) How could the 6100 foot sightings be records, when my book states 7138? 6100 would be a record for SoCal, but not overall. And 2) has anyone checked google earth to see if 7400 feet even exists in the Panamints? I don't know...I've never checked it either.

Ok, nevermind question 2, I just looked and found a peak over 8,000 feet. This guy might be telling the truth... :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 1:36 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Only pic I took of Brent and his King, but he was with me when he flipped it... very cool!
Image
As for that 'Blackturtle' guy... hmmm who knows? He sells subscriptions to his vids... has a book, ect Them guys will say anything to make a buck... :lol: :lol: :lol: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 1:48 pm 
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OY! Those songs leave something to be desired...but he sings better than I do... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 1:50 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Brian Hubbs wrote:
OY! Those songs leave something to be desired...but he sings better than I do... :lol:

Not taking the bait, Brian? oh well... have a good day anyway... :lol: :lol: jim
Oh yeah... I believe I have a King from 5860 in the berdoos... :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 4:10 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:38 pm
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Location: Los Angeles
I double-checked just now and our cars were parked at 6,186 feet. So, if the snake was found slightly above that, it may even have been found above 6,200 feet. I wasn't there when Bret found it, so don't know the exact spot. The rubber boa was found almost exactly at 6,100 feet.

Here are a couple of pictures Nicholas took of Bret's Calking at Tejon:

Image

Image

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 4:59 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Slightly down from the cars... and about even with the boa find... one ridge over...
Brett or Brent? Either way... good kid, good herper... :thumb: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 7:02 pm 

Joined: April 9th, 2011, 4:40 pm
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Location: North LA County
Yeah you're right hellihooks, he could be making it up but he seemed pretty nonchalant about it in his description. He mentions that he read they're supposed to be found under 6,000 feet in his field guide so he probably just thought it was a unique find and didn't think much else of it. I doubt he's reported it or anything (he probably should if he can get some accurate GPS coords of the spot). Leads me to believe it's legit but who knows really.

I wonder how many cool sightings have been made by people like locals, hikers, etc, that go unreported.

Nice pics of that king, Robert. Sounds like it was a good survey with that find and the boa.


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 7:07 pm 
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Our kings were just accepted to Herp Review for highest in SoCa - I think it was 6102 and 6107


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 13th, 2013, 9:44 pm 
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Location: Rancho Cucamonga, Ca
how do you submit a record to herp review?


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 6:01 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
michael68 wrote:
Yeah you're right hellihooks, he could be making it up but he seemed pretty nonchalant about it in his description. He mentions that he read they're supposed to be found under 6,000 feet in his field guide so he probably just thought it was a unique find and didn't think much else of it. I doubt he's reported it or anything (he probably should if he can get some accurate GPS coords of the spot). Leads me to believe it's legit but who knows really.

I wonder how many cool sightings have been made by people like locals, hikers, etc, that go unreported.

Nice pics of that king, Robert. Sounds like it was a good survey with that find and the boa.


It's possible he posed the snake... for the song. Scripts often proceed actual videos. Selling songs is his gig. maybe... maybe not. just something about a king in that kind of pine... strikes me as 'off'. :| jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 7:16 am 
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His name is Brett not Brent.

My Girlfriend Lori, Brett's mom, wanted me to clarify.

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 7:51 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Fundad wrote:
His name is Brett not Brent.

My Girlfriend Lori, Brett's mom, wanted my to clarify.

Fundad

Thank you, and my apologies for getting it wrong. Look forward to seeing ya'll at Kid's day? Let me know if you need any help with that, Brian. jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 11:27 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:38 pm
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Quote:
just something about a king in that kind of pine... strikes me as 'off'. :| jim


Exactly what I thought.

Also, the habitat with the donkeys doesn't look like 7000+ feet. It's of course possible that the donkeys were filmed elsewhere, but the video seems to suggest that they were in the immediate vicinity. Otherwise why include them in the video? But I only watched the video once and maybe I missed something (important).

EDIT: I couldn't help but take another look, this time on GoogleEarth. By luck I found a pass in the Panamint Range, Roger's Pass, at just about the right elevation (~7,100 feet), with nearby areas including a dirt road that goes even higher up. Pictures of the area posted on GE seem to show the type of habitat seen in the video, including one, taken from Manly Lookout, showing the same or a very similar kind of pine tree.

So, I want to say that the guy may well not have been making this up, except maybe that he put the snake in the tree to go along with his song (?).

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 12:21 pm 
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It's hard to put it at 7200ft judging from the mountains in the background through the pine, but maybe in the 6200/6300ft range in an area such as South Park Canyon. Hard to tell, but fun Google Earthing the area.


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 2:18 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:38 pm
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Ha, I was right, it's Roger's Pass. It basically says so right on in the description of the video on Youtube. Duh. Specifically, it says the snake was found between Pleasanton Canyon and Middle Park Canyon, which is just Southwest of Roger's Pass. :)

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 6:22 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Or... he could have found the snake lower down... got the idea for the song, and held onto the snake till he found a tree he liked, higher up, not realizing another couple hundred feet would matter that much... :roll:

I've never seen a king that high up in a tree, and the guy has a rep for making vids... not collecting data... :roll:

If it was a herper... I'd be more prone to believe it... :) jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 14th, 2013, 7:53 pm 
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Trust me Jim, they climb!

When I found it:

Image

A couple minutes later it went up the base of a coyote bush and then went horizontal at eye level:

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 15th, 2013, 6:32 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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I've seen them climb in bushes as well... but a pine tree? :roll: I'd have to see it to believe it. jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 15th, 2013, 7:18 pm 
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Lot's of stuff gets surprisingly high up in the White/Inyo/Panamint Mountains. I see little reason to doubt a cal king at 7400' there. That guy has a lot of interesting stuff on his website, I make it a point to check it out his trip reports etc... once every year or so.


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 20th, 2013, 8:11 am 

Joined: July 5th, 2011, 2:27 pm
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Judging from what this person has posted at previous times, I don't see a single reason why anyone would want to lie about the elevation that an animal was found at. That doesn't mean he didn't pose the kingsnake in the tree for his Youtube video. I can imagine a Calking climbing around in a bush, but a pine tree doesn't make that much sense at all. That said, maybe someone could consider contacting this person and asking him/her for details. It could be a great oppurtunity for the NAFHA.

Best Wishes,
Nightsnakeman


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 21st, 2013, 12:09 am 

Joined: March 12th, 2011, 12:40 pm
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Telescope is over 9000' mat hit 10000, I flipped one in baja at abiut 6300-6500, I thought it might be a release, but still not sure about that!


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 2:34 pm 
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That's pretty neat! I never knew kingsnakes climbed in the wild. But, when I was a kid, I kept a kingsnake that I caught in my backyard and I gave her one of those large driftwood branches. If she wasn't burrowed under bedding, she was perched as on the driftwood as high as she could go! I always thought it was strange!

http://youtu.be/y60Ri2SaqO0


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 2:35 pm 
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That's pretty neat! I never knew kingsnakes climbed in the wild. But, when I was a kid, I kept a kingsnake that I caught in my backyard and I gave her one of those large driftwood branches. If she wasn't burrowed under bedding, she was perched as on the driftwood as high as she could go! I always thought it was strange!

http://youtu.be/y60Ri2SaqO0


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 3:21 pm 
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According to Blackturtleshow, “Kingsnake encountered during hike in Panamint Range on ridge between Pleasant Canyon and Middle Park Canyon.”

Don’t toss out Hubbs’ book just yet.
Has anyone noticed that the ridge between Pleasant Canyon and Middle Park Canyon doesn’t even reach 7400, except at two remote peaks. That is not a very high area in general and the video itself appears to be taken in a valley.

If the peaks barely reach 7400’, one can only imagine that valley’s elevation. My point, he would have to be standing atop of one of the peaks, looking down into the valley in order to have found it at 7400’.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 24th, 2013, 6:14 pm 
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Detective Will strikes.. :)

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 1:25 am 
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michael68 wrote:
I double checked Brian Hubb's book on common kings and he said the highest (known) find was at 7,138 ft at a locale in the Eastern Sierra.



Hubbs, Is this high elevation in the Eastern Sierras or White Mountains? There are many herps reaching their highest elevation in the Whites.


FD: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 7:28 am 
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Hey Will, you are correct about there only being a few points on that ridge reaching 7400'. But if you read his description at

http://www.blackturtle.us/BLOG/sep042011.html

he says:

'Most of the "Snake in a Tree" video was shot on the ridge between Pleasant Canyon and Middle Park Canyon in the Panamint Range. The part featuring the donkeys was shot in Middle Park near the start of the hike at 6300 feet in elevation. I came across the snake on the ridge at an altitude of about 7400 feet...'

Also keep in mind that hiking up remote peaks is pretty much what this guy does. Obviously, it is possible that he is making this up, exaggerating, or mis-remembering, but I don't see any particular reason to think that is the case here.

Just sayin'.


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 9:09 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Has anyone else seen a king that high up in a Pine? Not saying this couldn't (didn't) happen... just that... we have 2 things that are kinda hard to believe, with no herping reputation to back it up. Had it been one of the 'Brians' or you Carl, or any other well-known Herper... it might be more palatable.
Which also begs the question... should this be treated as a report, or as an anecdotal story/song? :roll: :lol: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 11:35 am 
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Carl: Thanks for bringing that point up because moving the snake to a lower elevation was something that I did not consider. As for it being in a pine tree or any other tree, Kingsnakes as well as many other snakes are superb climbers. I have never come upon a person that was intentionally being deceitful. Rather, people often get their elevations wrong, estimate locations, or mix-up field notes that obscures information.


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 5:26 pm 
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I've never seen one in a tree, but I'm sure it happens. There is a pic of one climbing a bird nest box here:

http://www.californiaherps.com/snakes/pages/l.g.californiae.html

Standard disclaimers, I'm assuming the photo is not staged, etc...


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 25th, 2013, 6:33 pm 
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Nest is about 100ft up. So, the snake a couple feet below the nest could have been killed in the nest or brought there from the ground. This is in April 2009 in the Bay Area, so more than likely, the snake was killed during the day. I have no doubt that kingsnakes climb looking for young birds in nests. Of course, oaks would be easier to climb than Eucalyptus.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 26th, 2013, 7:51 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Isn't that an owl perched there? so the King is dropped prey? I found a Big Red Coach exiting my roof eaves(attic space) having climbed Lilacs to get up there.
The question still remains... do we take this as a confirmed sighting, or as anecdotal? In other words... would say, Herp Review consider it 'noteworthy'? :? jim


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 26th, 2013, 5:27 pm 
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It was in the Eastern Sierra, Will. There is a picture in the book of the locality with the name of the road...


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 26th, 2013, 5:45 pm 
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Owen wrote:
Nest is about 100ft up. So, the snake a couple feet below the nest could have been killed in the nest or brought there from the ground. This is in April 2009 in the Bay Area, so more than likely, the snake was killed during the day. I have no doubt that kingsnakes climb looking for young birds in nests. Of course, oaks would be easier to climb than Eucalyptus.

Image

That is crazy! Cool shot!


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 Post subject: Re: Kingsnake elevation limit?
PostPosted: January 27th, 2013, 8:42 am 
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mattg wrote:
how do you submit a record to herp review?


To make a long story short, basically you get the specimen (or photo voucher) accepted to a museum collection, figure out what kind of record you have and what the Herp Review protocol is for writing it up, then write it up according to protocol and submit it to Herp Review, where it will be directed to the appropriate editor. They will work with you to fix the writeup if it is a valid record but not quite written to their specifications.

This link has the info on the details for note preparation and the relevant section editors:

http://www.ssarherps.org/pages/HRinfo.php


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