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 Post subject: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 8:09 pm 
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The first King of the year didn't disappoint.....
Image

Is it......
1: Banded
2: Newporter
3: SD Striper
4: Chocolate backed
5: Dotted
6: Barred

Found in OC this year......


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 8:34 pm 
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Definitely not a Newport. Its a striper or striped aberrant. It can be striped, dotted, or barred. All are found in that area. lol I'll guess barred.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 11:05 pm 
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Beautiful kingsnake. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 11:15 pm 
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What do we get if we win? :D . I will guess striped.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 29th, 2012, 11:19 pm 
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barred


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 11:32 am 
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impossible question.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 11:55 am 
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It basically a guessing game. Just play why don't you... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 12:41 pm 
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The black underside from the vent to tail tip indicates to me it at least has some striped phase genetics.

I might be wrong about that, but it appears to me anyway that black underside of tail is either an indication of striped genetics or at least southern Cal King genetics, and I *think* it's codom - one parent has to have solid black underside of tail, but both don't.

That's guess, I haven't done proper breeding tests, and I don't want to, there are far too many getula breeders resulting in difficulty in selling offspring that aren't really special.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 12:56 pm 
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The chocolate under-tail is indicative of striping or aberrant patterns, so the snake is not banded. The belly pattern suggests a Newport, but the sides are weird, so since it was found in OC, I'd say Newport aberrant...either barred or chocolate-topped. There, I played. :lol: My money is on Barred, just due to the odds, but...it might also be a striped "in-between" (since they also occur in southern OC) but those are harder to find than a barred. Anyone who has my common kingsnake book can figure this stuff out...Hint, Hint...


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 1:48 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
The chocolate under-tail is indicative of striping or aberrant patterns, so the snake is not banded. The belly pattern suggests a Newport, but the sides are weird, so since it was found in OC, I'd say Newport aberrant...either barred or chocolate-topped. There, I played. :lol: My money is on Barred, just due to the odds, but...it might also be a striped "in-between" (since they also occur in southern OC) but those are harder to find than a barred. Anyone who has my common kingsnake book can figure this stuff out...Hint, Hint...

In this case the chocolate under-tail is indicative of the SD striper. A true Newport is dark under the tail but it also has yellow pigment on the lower sides of the tail creating two lower stripes. Here is a perfect example from my website. :lol:
Image

You never see a Newport with a solid brown tail all the way around. It is obvious by Lou's picture, there is striping on the upper part of the tail and no striping on the lower side of the tail. It is a SD striper or SD striped aberrant. I don't agree that the Newport-Long Beach morph is an aberrant Newport, because they are not found within the heart of the Newport range. If they are found with Newport's, like in this area of OC, its only in the outer edge of the Newport range. Look at the bottom of a Newport-Long Beach barred morph's tail. That's a SD striper tail and there is pattern on top of the tail unlike the Newport.
Image
Image

The barred morph is a SD striped aberrant along with the dotted morph and the proof is in the pudding. :lol: You find bars on all sorts of SD striped aberrants all through their range but you don't find bars on Newports. Bars are a SD striped aberrant trait.

Lou's snake is either a SD striper, or a SD striped aberrant like a dotted or barred morph. I hope that clears thing up for you. :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 1:50 pm 
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FunkyRes wrote:
The black underside from the vent to tail tip indicates to me it at least has some striped phase genetics.

I might be wrong about that, but it appears to me anyway that black underside of tail is either an indication of striped genetics or at least southern Cal King genetics, and I *think* it's codom - one parent has to have solid black underside of tail, but both don't.

That's guess, I haven't done proper breeding tests, and I don't want to, there are far too many getula breeders resulting in difficulty in selling offspring that aren't really special.

You are right on the money. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 2:20 pm 
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You crack me up...the reason the barred morph has bars and the non-speckled sides like a Newporter is because it is found on the "edge" of the Newport range, between the SD striped area and the Newport area, where the banded morph invaded 100,000+ years ago. The bars are partial bands. This is all explained in the book, as well as the fact that aberrant Newporters do not always or even ever have solid dark tail tops. Also, the undertail of my N-LB barred snake looks just like Lou's pic.

See, the fact is that you have not seen enough Newporters, aberrants, or dotteds and stripers to know enough to preach about them. You're doing the same thing i did 20 years ago...you think you have it all figured out because you've seen "something"...but really, both of us have seen "nothing" yet...so we can't make absolute statements about any of this stuff. All we can do is state possibilities based on experience. That snake could be any Newport morph, or any in-between morph, but if it's a SD striper it was a rare find in OC.

Also, and I'll add this...in your breeding experiments, if you aren't keeping the snakes pure from the same localities you aren't going to learn much about the morphs or their ranges. In other words, mixing gene pools will tell you that gene pools can be mixed, and not much else... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 2:33 pm 
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Quote:
I don't agree that the Newport-Long Beach morph is an aberrant Newport, because they are not found within the heart of the Newport range


Since when did something have to occur "in the heart of a range" to make it an aberrant of a class of morphs?

Did I miss the morph rules class?

Fundd


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 2:53 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
You crack me up...the reason the barred morph has bars and the non-speckled sides like a Newporter is because it is found on the "edge" of the Newport range, between the SD striped area and the Newport area

Explain why you see bars well into SD striped range but you don't see bars well into Newport range? It is a SD striped aberrant trait, not a Newport aberrant trait. Just like we don't see scrambled banding in SD.

Brian Hubbs wrote:
where the banded morph invaded 100,000+ years ago.

Don't try to make yourself sound smarter than you really are. You were not around back then to know that for a fact. Besides, that has nothing to do with it. :lol:



Brian Hubbs wrote:
The bars are partial bands. This is all explained in the book

I agree

Brian Hubbs wrote:
, as well as the fact that aberrant Newporters do not always or even ever have solid dark tail tops.

I agree and that goes for normal Newport's as well.

Brian Hubbs wrote:
Also, the undertail of my N-LB barred snake looks just like Lou's pic.

Exactly, that's why I say its a SD striped aberrant. Now show me a barred morph with striping on the lower sides of the tail like a Newport has.

Brian Hubbs wrote:
See, the fact is that you have not seen enough Newporters, aberrants, or dotteds and stripers to know enough to preach about them. You're doing the same thing i did 20 years ago...you think you have it all figured out because you've seen "something"...but really, both of us have seen "nothing" yet...so we can't make absolute statements about any of this stuff. All we can do is state possibilities based on experience.

Speak for your self. I have seen something. I've seen the light... :lol: :lol:

Brian Hubbs wrote:
That snake could be any Newport morph, or any in-between morph, but if it's a SD striper it was a rare find in OC.

If its a Newport morph, its an in betweener, which I think would be very rare and very unlikely. Stripers have been found in OC by a number of people, so its either, a striper, barred, or dotted. No way its chocolate backed. Chocolate back is a Newport trait.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:03 pm 
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Fundad wrote:
Quote:
I don't agree that the Newport-Long Beach morph is an aberrant Newport, because they are not found within the heart of the Newport range


Since when did something have to occur "in the heart of a range" to make it an aberrant of a class of morphs?

Did I miss the morph rules class?

Fundd

I'm never going to argue, debate, or discuss Cal kings with you ever again, Brian. You can't take it and you've showed that many times in the past. In this case, you are right. And you will always be right. That's how I'm going to deal with you for now on. I'd rather stay your friend than become you foe.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:04 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
Also, and I'll add this...in your breeding experiments, if you aren't keeping the snakes pure from the same localities you aren't going to learn much about the morphs or their ranges. In other words, mixing gene pools will tell you that gene pools can be mixed, and not much else... :lol:

Yeah, I know that. Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:05 pm 
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You foe. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:07 pm 
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Anyway, we have to go by the list Lou gave us, assuming he knows the difference between a pure morph and an in betweener.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:12 pm 
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Really Ross? Oh Brother..

:roll:

You really got a learn to have a little thicker skin..

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:14 pm 
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You're right. :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:32 pm 
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Good, then answer the question? :lol: :lol:

After all "friends" discuss things, and even debate them at times...

I mean really who really needs, or wants, a friendship where one of the friends just tells the other one "YOU'RE RIGHT" all the time?

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 3:36 pm 
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Ross :lol: :lol: :lol: Well, you're wrong again, bro...barred snakes are not SD Stripers, they are closer to Newporters, but can appear with both traits depending on where you find them. The closer they are to OC, the more they resemble a Newporter (and also have the most bars), and the closer they are to the SD range, the more they look like a SD striper (with some striping, some banding, some bars, and some dots). In the heart of SD range you do not find snakes with a majority of bars on them...You haven't found all the areas these things occur in, and really have no idea of where the cutoffs are for the different pattern combinations. Keep working on it. :lol:

so, where's the pics of the so-called newporters from SD county? And, who are all these people who've found SD stripers in OC? I want to see pics with names attached, not just an empty statement. I've only seen one...and somebody else found it in extreme south San Clemente (right where it should have been, and it was an in-between).

"Typical" Newporter from L.A. county
Image

"True" Barred morph from OC
Image

"Not so pure" Barred morph from a little closer to pure SD striped snakes. Note it still has the Newport "side" blotches going on...
Image

"Dotted, Barred, and Dashed" from even closer to pure SD snakes (and surrounded by them), no side blotching at all...
Image

The defense RESTS...


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:03 pm 
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Fundad wrote:
Good, then answer the question? :lol: :lol:

After all "friends" discuss things, and even debate them at times...

I mean really who really needs, or wants, a friendship where one of the friends just tells the other one "YOU'RE RIGHT" all the time?

Fundad

I can't argue with at. :lol: :beer:

Brian Hubbs wrote:
Ross :lol: :lol: :lol: Well, you're wrong again, bro...barred snakes are not SD Stripers, they are closer to Newporters, but can appear with both traits depending on where you find them. The closer they are to OC, the more they resemble a Newporter (and also have the most bars), and the closer they are to the SD range, the more they look like a SD striper (with some striping, some banding, some bars, and some dots). In the heart of SD range you do not find snakes with a majority of bars on them...You haven't found all the areas these things occur in, and really have no idea of where the cutoffs are for the different pattern combinations. Keep working on it. :lol:

You don't either, Brian. And just because you have seen more kings, doesn't nesisarily mean you are always right. Put that in your pipe and smoke it. :lol: Yes, when you see bars on kings in SD, they do have more of a SD striper look, but the Newport look you are referring to on the lower sides of barred morphs near or in the Newport range, can also be seen on SD stripers.
Image
Are those blotches I see? How could this be? :lol:


Brian Hubbs wrote:
so, where's the pics of the so-called newporters from SD county? And, who are all these people who've found SD stripers in OC? I want to see pics with names attached, not just an empty statement. I've only seen one...and somebody else found it in extreme south San Clemente (right where it should have been, and it was an in-between).

There's the picture above and I never said they were SD Newporters. I said the solid yellow with dark blotching on the lower side has been found in SD. I have no idea if Taylor found his snake in North Western SD Co., you'd have to ask him. He told me where these turn up, the majority have the normal SD striped phenotype. And as for the OC stripers...I'm not going to name anymore people here. Call me.


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:07 pm 
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No, those are not blotches, you blithering idiot...those are combinations of speckling and a line...typical of some SD snakes...If i found that in L.A. I would not call it a newporter...see my pics above... 8-)


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:09 pm 
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You're blind....


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:22 pm 
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So what do we do now? Wait for Lou? :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:25 pm 
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Well, YOU could re-read my book...

I hope everbody knowd dat weuns is jus kiddin'


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:25 pm 
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:lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:31 pm 
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:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:31 pm 
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:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:32 pm 
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:thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:35 pm 
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:thumb: :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:40 pm 
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 4:40 pm 
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:thumb: :thumb: :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:25 pm 
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We're waiting Lou...hellooooo...Louie...are you there?
Waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting, waiting... :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:28 pm 
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Humor is NOT allowed anymore in the California Chapter, therefore I must remove this thread...

Image

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:40 pm 
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:cry:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:43 pm 
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Yeah, hurry up Lou before I piss these guys off again. :lol: It would be so funny if I was dead WRONG. :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:46 pm 

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Fundad wrote:
I mean really who really needs, or wants, a friendship where one of the friends just tells the other one "YOU'RE RIGHT" all the time?

Fundad


I agree 100%... Brian is absolutely right.
Fundad wrote:
Humor is NOT allowed anymore in the California Chapter, therefore I must remove this thread...
Fundad

I'm sorry if my reply breaks this new rule... If it did... well, not by much :crazyeyes: :D jim


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:50 pm 
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The truth is, I really did think Fundad was right, but was too sore to admit it. :D :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 5:59 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
the Newport area, where the banded morph invaded 100,000+ years ago. The bars are partial bands.


Of course we assume this assertion is well supported by the fossil record. :lol: :lol: :lol: :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 6:13 pm 

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Of coarse it was supported by fossil records, Hubbs was there to write them! Probably owns the rights to them. You will need to buy his next book to find out. Start saving your cash. When will you guys learn to not argue with him about Kingsnakes? Geez! :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 6:30 pm 
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:lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 6:36 pm 
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KidCurry wrote:
Hubbs was there to write them! Probably owns the rights to them.


It wouldn't surprise me. I actually do have all his books. They are quite excellent.

btw, Nice word play. Hellihooks would dig that :)


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 6:59 pm 
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I've been on a plane from Djibouti to Bangkok. Followed by some sleep.

You guys are good. I thought the photo showing just a bit of the tail was a good clue as the top of it was striped. Glad you saw it. I don't know kings as well as you guys, but figured the striped tail would be a definite SD Striper. Yeh, I have your books Hubbs. I also thought the sides looked a bit Newporter, as you can see a little in photo.

Anyways, I figured this post would help teach others by having you guys share your knowledge. I know I've learned something.

The snake in question.....
Image
Image
A SD Striper....with a little Newporter in him possibly. Is that right? Or do I need to buy another book to figure it out...LoL

Also, I love the humor on this site. It wasn't the humor that I thought was unbecoming of us in the other post. But no need to go there.

Also, I found this SD Striper well within OC last year...
Image

Thanks for sharing guys. Great pics too.

Lou


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 7:28 pm 
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What do you mean by well inside OC? What city? I'm not ready to redraw those maps yet... :lol: I was told, but thought it was a joke, that a certain person released some SD snakes at a certain board spot owned by a certain "Steve B."...and i know you've been there...I was with you... :o Of course, if you mean a few miles up San Juan Creek...they could certainly be natives because their range extends over the mountains into that drainage...


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 7:31 pm 
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LouB747 wrote:
I thought the photo showing just a bit of the tail was a good clue as the top of it was striped.

It was, but apparently some people are unaware. Even people that write books on these snakes. :lol: It could have also been aberrant with dots and bars.
LouB747 wrote:
A SD Striper....with a little Newporter in him possibly. Is that right?

Hubbs says yes. I say no and I have proof, but Hubbs doesn't. Hubbs has his mouth. :lol: Hubbs also doesn't believe you can find a striper north of San Clemente, or else someone planted it there. :roll:

Anyway, great finds Lou! I really appreciate you sharing this stuff when you don't even have to. :thumb: :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 7:33 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
What do you mean by well inside OC? What city? I'm not ready to redraw those maps yet... :lol: I was told, but thought it was a joke, that a certain person released some SD snakes at a certain board spot owned by a certain "Steve B."...and i know you've been there...I was with you... :o

You beat me to it you old fart. :lol: That's BS, those stripers were not released there. Rumors are started by haters. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 7:34 pm 
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I got you before you edited it. hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha


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 Post subject: Re: What Kinda King Izzat
PostPosted: January 30th, 2012, 7:35 pm 
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Yeah, but Remember Ross...stripers are found on Ortega Hwy...something we didn't think about when he said OC...


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