A few things from todays little outing

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Jeremy Westerman
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A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

I went to check a couple of spots and to a marsh to see if I could come up with a valley garter today.

Walked up a speedy yellowbellied racer (no pic) right after I saw this guy
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The area had a few hold out snakes on a ledge (counted 9) but most had dispersed nicely all the way down the hill, just about every likely spot on the hike up seemed to have a rattlesnake or two. Looks like I missed emergence by weeks which is strange because there were still patches of snow here and there, so I know they got snow in the last couple of storms in April/early May.
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I didn't get even close to the actual den opening area because the place was crawling with rattlesnakes (hell and gone from it in fact at least another twenty minutes of serious cliff scrambling would be required) and I deemed it not prudent to scramble up and over snake infested brush and rocks.
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The bootleg batteries that happened to be in the point and shoot crapped out so I took most shots with a go pro that was barely charged which makes them look funny because of the fish lens effect. At least I got a few pics, yay go me with expert planning, not.
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Holy Crotes! a triple flip. Go me. Is that called a hat-trick or a turkey?
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I saw four very young snakes in the brush Image
and didn't manage to get a discernible pic of any of them. Bummer. Wish the Go Pro had a view screen. But I did get one of this dude hanging out
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Habitat shot
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Off to the marsh, saw the usual ten billion birds including a great blue heron.
Three wandering garters were flipped
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and three leopard frogs.
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No Valley Garters just this nasty carp stuck in a side channel that I felt sorry for (don't ask me why) so I dumped him back in the deep water.
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15 or so rattlesnakes, one yellowbellied racer, three wandering garter snakes, three leopard frogs, 4 DOR road splat snakes, one sandwich and a pepsi makes a day that wasn't half bad.

*late edit to clear up any confusion due to terminology and mistaken impressions due to a few vague descriptions. Hope this helps a few of you.*
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sjfriend
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by sjfriend »

I'd say you had a great day. When I drive thru later this summer I would be happy with a couple sightings n pics.

Love those GB's
Zach_Lim
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Zach_Lim »

I love this post!
The progression of photos really brought me there.

Really enjoyed the shot of that "leaner" rock flip!
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Brendan
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brendan »

Great job Jeremy. Keep up the good work!!
Brendan
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Rancorrye
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Rancorrye »

Jeremy Westerman wrote: Wish the Go Pro had a view screen.
You're in luck.... http://gopro.com/hd-hero-accessories/lcd-touch-bacpac

Looks like a good day Jeremy.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Brendan wrote:Take it for what it's worth........ One major reason why snakes may be dispersing from that site sooner than anticipated is probably your 'hands on" approach too close to the den. That rock you flipped was probably a site the snakes used for decades before you ever found that site and they may never use it again now. I had major hopes half way through your post that all the snakes seemed undisturbed till i got to that photo. I guess it's better than seeing gravid females held up in tongs but if you care to see those snakes year after year I would reconsider flipping rocks like that any place close to this or any den. There is really no point. At least one of those snakes was a gravid female and I would guess maybe all were. This was technically probably a "rookery slab" which may now be ruined.

I hate to rain on your parade each year but I really hate to see stuff like this from guys who should know better. Sorry if I come across as being negative, I am just concerned for the snakes.

Brendan
Brendan we have already gone the rounds on this issue, but if you insist, I will respond. I have been visiting this same exact den for almost two decades now (nearly 17 years) and I have flipped that same exact rock many many times. They appear to be using it consistently despite your personal theories just fine. I haven't even been to the den this year until the middle of May, that is why they are moved out (good weather and temps, normal behavior) not any disturbance. In my commentary I suggested that the late snows may have kept them around.

The only snakes that were physically moved at all were the ones under the rock (so I could replace it without smashing them) and then put them right back under it. While total hands off techniques when herping are commendable, picking up a garter snake (or any other snake) is not the ecological disaster you perceive it to be. If you can get off your high horse for a moment, you may be able to see the forest for the trees. Nearly all of the members on this site flip rocks to look for snakes (duh). If the cover is put back in the same position to conserve moisture and preserve the habitat then few would claim (except you) that it is irresponsible to flip cover. You have no idea how far away the actual "den" is so you really are jumping to wild conclusions based on your own speculation. You haven't a clue about any potential maternity rookeries in the region let alone this specific site and where they might be. The reality is the entire area for miles is porous limestone with numerous caves, crevices, fractures and holes that are used. Hundreds of "dens" are here which is why there is such a high consistent density of snakes year after year. I have seen some of the same snakes year in and year out.

I hate to rain on your parade but you don't have a clue if any of those snakes are gravid (certainly not from any of the crappy pics I took let alone what the size, sex or maturity of said snakes were from the photos) and your theory about cover selection and possible avoidance after a once a year disturbance is obviously dead wrong. Just because you take pictures of rattlesnakes in the easiest state to find them and got your name in a book doesn't make you the authority on them. If anything is "probable", it is you trying to judge me based on scant or no data and immediately jumping to incorrect conclusions, very scientific of you. Oh wait, you are a chiropractor so your idea of what is actually scientific is already confused. how many rocks have you flipped Brendan? How many dens or rookeries have you be up close to? No snakes were harmed much to your chagrin. It may be likely that in some areas such as this I am the only human these snakes see all year, in other areas I know about, they remain even through constant hikers, rock climbers, hunters, dogs and random persecution by others.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Rancorrye wrote:
Jeremy Westerman wrote: Wish the Go Pro had a view screen.
You're in luck.... http://gopro.com/hd-hero-accessories/lcd-touch-bacpac

Looks like a good day Jeremy.
Unfortunately I have the hero 2 Go Pro so I am not sure if that accessory will work with mine although I have been contemplating a Hero 3.
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Rancorrye
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Rancorrye »

Jeremy Westerman wrote:
Rancorrye wrote:
Jeremy Westerman wrote: Wish the Go Pro had a view screen.
You're in luck.... http://gopro.com/hd-hero-accessories/lcd-touch-bacpac

Looks like a good day Jeremy.
Unfortunately I have the hero 2 Go Pro so I am not sure if that accessory will work with mine although I have been contemplating a Hero 3.

Then you're in luck again :lol: http://gopro.com/hd-hero-accessories/lcd-bacpac
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Rancorrye wrote: Then you're in luck again :lol: http://gopro.com/hd-hero-accessories/lcd-bacpac
yeah I will look into it. :lol: sucks taking pictures with no idea how they turned out or where it was even pointed (they are fairly small these Go Pro gadgets) Of course I have my field camera point and shoot but the girlfriend "borrowed" my memory cards for mine so I was forced to borrow someone else's point and shoot pocket camera which had the cheapest turd batteries I have ever seen in it (I have never heard of zinc chloride batteries) I am sure they were purchased at the dollar store or Big Lots which were brand new I saw him put them in from the package. Brand new they should last you at least 15 minutes! I didn't take nice cannon rebel camera that my girlfriend sometimes lets me take if I beg.

Remember the good ol' days of polaroid instant cameras or actually waiting for film to be developed? Ha! It felt like that sorta.
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Brendan
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brendan »

Your right I could never tell a female from a male from a photo! My bad.
Jimi
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jimi »

Just because you take pictures of rattlesnakes in the easiest state to find them and got your name in a book doesn't make you the authority on them. If anything is "probable", it is you trying to judge me based on scant or no data and immediately jumping to incorrect conclusions, very scientific of you. Oh wait, you are a chiropractor so your idea of what is actually scientific is already confused. how many rocks have you flipped Brendan? How many dens or rookeries have you be up close to?
Waaaay over the top man. Chill. Please. No need for an ad hominem pissing match in this chapter. We do a pretty good job of avoiding those. There are other outlets for that. Thanks for understanding.

Jimi
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

I was going to quote you again but I will just say it all in a brief summation: good for you! you deserve a medal for your insightful ethics and impeccable field craft, the world has a great deal to learn from your technique.

Both those pics were taken on the approach hike far from any "den" as they were found (never touched 'em) and that rock I flipped happens to be several hundred feet both vertically and laterally away from the site. Like I said you are full of...assumptions.
I have seen your pictures and know well that you take many with the snakes in situ "den" cracks or whatever. So much for your don't even know I am there style. Most of your "advice" seems hypocritical. Not that I think that pics of dens is a bad thing or even handling wild animals is bad, or for that matter your advice is bad. I actually admire greatly most of your photos, you clearly have the time and money to buy decent equipment and the patience and practice to use it.

What pisses me off is when you assume you know how I do things when you weren't there. You just assume that I have this heavy handed approach of destruction and must feel the scales or whatever on all of them when I actually only moved 3 out of 15 rattlesnakes seen that day, briefly with tools, so I could set the rock back and not crush them if they had shifted. Most I didn't even bother to get a picture of or couldn't due to circumstance. They crawled back under that flipped rock no worse for wear (one with a little directional encouragement.) I in no way viciously man-handled a bunch of snakes for the tactile sensation or disturbed the den (I didn't even make it that far.) All that is besides the point, these animals are not delicate faberge eggs that will curl up and die if they get spooked and rattle a passerby as you seem to think.

Lots of people are hands on in their approach to herps and lots are hands off, some like me are in-between; you don't get to be everyones mama and decide what's best for them. I also handled (with my actual hands!) all three garter snakes after flipping them. Oh the horror! Poor snakes they might never use that particular cover again or they could have been gravid females for all I don't seem to know in your estimation (I am just not cocky and brazen to declare my hunches on sexing snakes in the field definitively like you are, I would love to actually probe some then run you through a little picture quiz to show you that your confident assumptions are just educated guesstimations at best really.)

For all you know I took those photos months, years or miles apart or didn't even take them. My point is you were quick to assume, then even quicker to jump on your "more pious than thou" soapbox and preach based on very little information indeed. Your condescending remarks and smug attitude are what I take offense with, ironically it is not how I work with snakes in the field (like I said you don't have a clue and would probably be surprised.) A handful of sentences a few pictures and you think you know everything about me or my experiences that day.
If I had not used the word den in my post or we hadn't discussed this before you wouldn't even have said anything (this time I am assuming.)
At the heart of the matter and to risk tedium because we have tread this same ground before we aren't fighting a battle, just disagreeing on what if any impact our perhaps different styles (don't assume) with the hobby have on the wildlife.

Jimi, I appreciate the advice and word of decorum from you, I count you as a friend, and when I cool off I will probably take your advice but that still doesn't change my opinion of his profession nor make you a moderator.
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Brendan
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brendan »

I was mistaken for taking the time to share my opinions. Forgive my ignorance Jeremy. You obviously know much more about rattlesnakes than I ever will.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Like I said you weren't there so you don't know. your entire premise is based on assumption. True my comments about the actual den site may have led you to believe that way but so what. Next time I will take a picture every fourth step just so presumers like you can fully understand. I stated in the original post that I did not make it to the den. the two snakes you presume are gravid (it very may well be) are actually the same snake, and it was far down slope almost back to the canyon bottom. I saw it in the open (it saw me first) then took a shot of it on the move and a few more after it settled in some rocks. That rock I flipped in the pic (flipped a lot of rocks that day btw) is far from what I consider any denning areas or maternity areas and the snakes under it were all definitely sub adults. I found them by flipping I didn't callously try to get a better look by uncovering them after I saw them. Who tries to flip a rock with rattlesnakes sticking out of all sides anyway? Most of the photos here are barely discernable snakes under rocks I didn't flip because I knew the snake was there or snakes in brush that I didn't pull out for pics. You don't know how I herp so mind your own business. I understand what you are saying and it is actually sound advice, if given in a rather condescending manner but it doesn't apply to this situation. If I hadn't used the word "den" you wouldn't have commented. Lots of guys take pissed off rattlesnake buzzing pictures on this site, I guess I will flood this site with pissed off defensive snake pictures just to irk you. Even more guys have favorite rocks they like to flip.
Of course some of the snakes I saw were disturbed, some were in the open and retreated from me the slope is extremely steep so creeping like a ninja is impossible. Some I stuck a camera at where I saw them poking out. I didn't have the luxury of a expensive doubler and pro telephoto camera. Doesn't matter, none were harmed and I didn't disturb any dens. Outcrop? what outcrop? I was scaling large bands of cliffs that run for miles, it all looks the same, I could probably give you the GPS and you couldn't find it.
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

sjfriend wrote:I'd say you had a great day. When I drive thru later this summer I would be happy with a couple sightings n pics.

Love those GB's
Zach_Lim wrote:I love this post!
The progression of photos really brought me there.

Really enjoyed the shot of that "leaner" rock flip!
Thanks guys glad someone enjoyed it. I sure had a good time.
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Brendan
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brendan »

Sorry if my comments came across the wrong way. I dont think your a bad guy or have bad herping etiquette. All I was trying to say was that the less any of us (myself included) disturb the animals close to dens the better. I still enjoyed seeing the animals and don't think any were harmed.
Jimi
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jimi »

the less any of us (myself included) disturb the animals close to dens the better
I think pretty much any reasonable person would agree with this. The less we make "personal exemptions" to this general guideline, the better for the animals, and the better for the herpers. Intrusive regs and enforcement can come from thoughtless behavior.

Anyway, thanks for defusing & clarifying.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Brendan
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brendan »

Jimi,

My intent was never to force my opinions on anyone. People are welcome to disagree and tell me I'm way off base if they feel that way. I just always wished that when I first got started in herping that those with more insight would have shared it with me do I could reflect on my actions and rethink them in some cases. I was guilty of being quick to grab a snake for a photo and gave no real thougt to the impact on the snakes. After several years of herping with Rich G and others I started to understand the impact it had and have tried to pass info on from my own mistakes.
Jeremy is going to continue to do things the way he sees fit and he is welcome to. I just want others who read these posts to have more food for thought that's all.
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brandon La Forest »

I think Brendan has some very valid points. Jeremy I think that you are taking the criticism to heart just a little too much. There are a lot of people here who have a lot more crotalid experience than you and I (Brendan being one of those) and their advice should be headed. My herping experiences became so much more fulfilling when I started listening to the advice of those who came before me. You have a really great spot there and it should be cherished and it really gives you a opportunity that most people dream of having and gives you a chance to really learn the animals. If you believe it or not now someday you will see the consequences of that style of herping, I have. I am 99.9999% certain that female in the grass is gravid. It is very east to tell even from a shotty photo. If I have any advice that your willing to listen too it would be to stop talking about the animals in absolutes as if you already know everything there is to know about their denning and social behaviors and instead let the animals tell their own stories with careful observation.

Cheers,

Brandon
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Brandon, I appreciate your cordial advice and much friendlier candid demeanor but frankly I am sick of advice at this point. Brandon, absolutely none of this is directed at you, just I am tired of this banter on this topic.

Who cares if a snake I walked up in a chance encounter in the open was gravid or not? I didn't touch it, I took 4 pictures of it and moved on. It wasn't at the den, far from it. That is called herping. I flipped some rocks on a hike and found some snakes that is also called herping. None of this occurred at the "den" or a maternity colony or in Holy than everywhere else Arizona.

I am just so immensely grateful that people have Brendan to quarterback all their decisions we can all rest easier tonight. Makes one wonder how many people have him on speed dial. I wonder why I have never heard of him in years of working with wildlife professionals and wildlife field related college education. I never said I actually disagreed with his smug advice just pointed out that it was unwarranted in this situation due to his mistaken assumptions and I didn't like his condescending delivery.

Next time I need everyones' sage advice I will ask for it. You guys have zero idea what my ethics are in regards to wildlife so I find it less than amusing you are wagging your finger at me presumptively. Like I have said over and over again Brendan was not there so his interpretation is presumptuous assumption based on zilch. No Den was disturbed, and all the mama snakes are safe, yes they are, oh yes they are. Awwwww. Precious.

I wrote an apology in a PM after our initial exchange for the Ad Hominem attack as Jimi rightly pointed out, but then found him being a douche about it on facebook and bad mouthing me in front of my friends. Whatever, we will never be road cruising buddies fine. The man apologized for making assumptions and I was going to leave it at that, but everytime I check back I would rather not see another "but he is still right" remark, when his idea of what went down is completely in the dark and he clearly jumped the gun with his better than everybody in the field scolding and chiding. How many times can I say it, he wasn't there and has no clue what actually happened. I do take major offense to any slight to my ethics no matter how obvious or implied.
I am going to reset this thread back at the two guys who reserved judgment and posted positive comments and Brendan's apology which worked for me. Like Jimi wisely said,
I think pretty much any reasonable person would agree with this. The less we make "personal exemptions" to this general guideline, the better for the animals, and the better for the herpers. Intrusive regs and enforcement can come from thoughtless behavior.

Anyway, thanks for defusing & clarifying.
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Brendan
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Brendan »

Now that I got rid of all of my ignorant input I'll end by saying congrats on a great day in the field.

B
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Jeremy Westerman
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Re: A few things from todays little outing

Post by Jeremy Westerman »

Petty Brendan, I was good with your apology you should have left it at that. I also will reiterate my apology for what it is worth: I am sorry I disdained your profession, I think you have sound advice (never disagreed with it in fact.) Also I am aware of how many field hours you put in your photos and your finds speak for themselves. I certainly never said I was more experienced, just resented the way you pointed it out. I would just appreciate a little lighter commentary. I am always open for polite discussion if you disagree with something next time instead of ridiculing me to our mutual friends on facebook (mistakenly due to your misperception), and blasting me with unwarranted presumptive condescending advice. For my part I realize just how far I lost my cool and for that I am truly sorry, but like you said you cast the first stone. You called me out on what you perceived was wrong, ok. I told you were mistaken but you wouldn't let it go. this entire incident began by your impetus, perhaps you should heed your own apropos advice next time and take a step back before you commit to action.
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