Western WA highlights

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PNWHerper
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Western WA highlights

Post by PNWHerper »

These are some pics from years ago. This is a compilation from 2004-2007. Some of these photos are crappy, but I felt they were still cool enough to share.





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A valley garter snake I found in the Snoq. Pass area. In situ.




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Lovely, pristine habitat along a small brook flowing through some old-growth forest. See the little bufo borealis? In situ.




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Here is one of them in hand. Beautiful little creature.



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Here is another Valley garter I found lower in elevation while hiking through some mature forest. Not a great pic, but you can still see the prey disappearing into the snakes mouth. What species is it eating? In situ.




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Here is a neonate NW gartersnake. This one is from San Juan Island, found during a species survey.




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Another neonate NW gartersnake. This one is from the mainland, somewhere east of Seattle. Green, rather than tan as the one above.




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Coolest NW garter I have ever seen. Found in the lowlands East of Seattle. The only completely melanistic specimen I have ever seen. Gorgeous animal. Would have made a lovely pet, but I don't keep herps anymore but rather enjoy them in the wild. So, I let it go. In situ on wind-thrown Douglas fir branches.




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Close up of a Puget Sound garter snake. This one waved its tongue at me in an exaggerated manner, flagging it up and down.




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A beautiful in situ Northern Pacific treefrog.




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A bullfrog found at Nisqually NWR. Most of the population there shows strong, bright green coloration on at least the upper parts of their bodies. Have not seen this color form outside of the refuge. In situ.





The following pics are from a site I worked at in the Tacoma area, helping do habitat restoration. Despite proximaty to a heavily urban setting, it was relatively abundant with frogs. Here is some of what we found when looking around for amphibians.




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A ratther plump, healthy looking Pacific treefrog. This pale, subtly stripped color form was common at this site.




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The other two species that we found were young northern red-legged frogs and 1 young bullfrog. Here they are, nose to nose. This is a great chance to compare their physiology. Eye angles appear obviously different. What other features do you notice that are different?




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Same two frogs, showing ventral sides. Note the leg color differences.


Hope you enjoyed. Look forward to more pics and stories from everyone else!

Fil
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Casey Lazik
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by Casey Lazik »

Excellent! Great photos!
Oh the days of being able to find Western Toads easily in Western Washington! I love that melanistic ordinoides! I found a couple almost that black in Lake Forest Park about 40 years ago!
Keep 'em coming!
Thanks

Casey
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jonathan
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by jonathan »

Nice post!
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Jeremiah_Easter
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by Jeremiah_Easter »

Cool melanistic NWG. The only all black one I have seen was on Vancouver Island, BC.
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concinnusman
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by concinnusman »

fantastic melanistic! I need one. Just last summer a male AND a female T- albino were found (both in WA) and they are thriving in captivity. This year a T pos was found. First ever that I'm aware of. See where i'm going with this?
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PNWHerper
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by PNWHerper »

That is amazing. I am not sure, where you are going with this. Care to elaborate further?
steve
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by steve »

Great Post I've been real curious about WA herps lately. You said you took part in a survey on San Juan Island. I will be on San Juan at FHL for two months this summer. I've done research into what types of herps are in the region, but I have not managed to find much (anything) in the way of San Juan Island in particular. What types of herps do you think I might have a chance of encountering? Even if it just garters and toads I'll still be happy, as everything on the north left coast will be a lifer. Also, are there any field guide that you (or anyone else) would suggest for that area? I'll also be on Vancouver Island and Olympic Peninsula for a few week at the end of the summer.

Thanks, Steve
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concinnusman
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by concinnusman »

PNWHerper wrote:That is amazing. I am not sure, where you are going with this. Care to elaborate further?
Well, I am a garter snake enthusiast and I've been breeding / keeping them for decades. I have a keen interest in aberrant forms. I'm currently trying to establish a captive breeding line of the little-known blue anerythristic morph of T. sirtalis concinnus (uncommon but naturally occurring in the wild). Before 2010, most garter breeders around the world had never heard of them, let alone seen one. Some books mention them, but not a photo existed on paper or the web before I put them there in 2010. They just didn't exist in the captive trade either. Now there's 3 WC pairs in captivity plus a few extra males. Hopefully the first cb litter will be born this year. cool. I did something neat.

Now, i know that T- albino T. ordinoides have been found before, but now, as of last summer we have a pair in captivity for the first time and they are about the same size/age. Maybe now we can finally establish this morph in the captive market (and without inbreeding) but i want to eventually take it a step farther and create double het melanistic/amel snakes and use those to hopefully create the first "snow" but really we don't know what a double homozygous melanistic/amel northwestern would look like. (its been done with eastern garters) all i know is that it would be a brand new morph. one that would probably never occur naturally. i just need to "borrow" a nice very black amel with little or no stripe showing. Problem is, i've only found two in my life. it could even be released later. i just need it to produce captive progeny with one or both of the albinos.
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M Wolverton
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by M Wolverton »

Steve, San Juan has just about everything the mainland does. It is much drier than the mainland though because it is in a rain shadow (the western point of Whidbey Island even has cacti). I work on the islands quite a bit and have mostly seen ordinoides and chorus frogs. One of these days I hope to get more time to look- maybe find some rubber boas (they should be common there).

Not long ago someone even found a sharp-tailed snake on Orcas Island.
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M Wolverton
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by M Wolverton »

The darkest melanistic garters I have seen were wandering garter snakes from north and south of Spokane, one of which was entirely black, no faint pattern at all. Another had a barely visible pattern (a hint of one really) and the two white dots on top of the head, but was otherwise black.
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Indafield
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by Indafield »

Nice post Fil, I have yet to see a melanistic Garter, I've got a place i wanna go look.

Richard Glad I could show you that population so you could take credit for it :roll:
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PNWHerper
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by PNWHerper »

Thanks for all the comments all.
Well, I am a garter snake enthusiast and I've been breeding / keeping them for decades. I have a keen interest in aberrant forms. I'm currently trying to establish a captive breeding line of the little-known blue anerythristic morph of T. sirtalis concinnus (uncommon but naturally occurring in the wild). Before 2010, most garter breeders around the world had never heard of them, let alone seen one. Some books mention them, but not a photo existed on paper or the web before I put them there in 2010. They just didn't exist in the captive trade either. Now there's 3 WC pairs in captivity plus a few extra males. Hopefully the first cb litter will be born this year. cool. I did something neat.

Now, i know that T- albino T. ordinoides have been found before, but now, as of last summer we have a pair in captivity for the first time and they are about the same size/age. Maybe now we can finally establish this morph in the captive market (and without inbreeding) but i want to eventually take it a step farther and create double het melanistic/amel snakes and use those to hopefully create the first "snow" but really we don't know what a double homozygous melanistic/amel northwestern would look like. (its been done with eastern garters) all i know is that it would be a brand new morph. one that would probably never occur naturally. i just need to "borrow" a nice very black amel with little or no stripe showing. Problem is, i've only found two in my life. it could even be released later. i just need it to produce captive progeny with one or both of the albinos.
That's a neet thing you got going on there. Breeding unique color traits is neet. Encouraging more love for and interest in gartersnakes much more so. I think, though, you misunderstood about the melanistic NW garter... I did not collect it. I saw it at a point when I was no longer collecting nor keeping any herps. I haven't collected for years. So that snake is still, hopefully, living out its life in the wild.
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concinnusman
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by concinnusman »

Indafield wrote:
Richard Glad I could show you that population so you could take credit for it :roll:
I really don't know what you're talking about. Nobody showed me where they were. If anyone wants to know where to find them, there's books older than you that can tell them where. And there isn't anything to give credit for. It's not like either of us discovered something previously unknown and like I said, nobody told or showed me where to find them. There's publications decades old mentioning the morph and of course locals have been seeing them longer. They just weren't/aren't established and known in herpetoculture and searching the web or books for actual pics of it taken before 2010 would yield nothing until I started uploading them. That's all I was saying. Now, since then, I made the first CBB babies available. Not sure if you knew or not, but it's very interesting to me that they are born totally normal! However, as they mature the red fades away and by sexual maturity, they're flat out blue.

Now, all i've done is, breeding for several years now and figuring out how the genetics work, have made CBB available in the hobby and built up they're popularity, and I also made it possible for a google image search for "blue concinnus" to actually yield results which it didn't used to do.

Which part of that did you want to claim credit for again? Oh, not that then? Just the discovery of the morph? Can't do that either. Someone beat us to it by about 50 years.
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Indafield
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by Indafield »

I'll go ahead and try my best at being the bigger person. You saw photo's of MINE pre crash...either on this site or another and we talked several times. I went ahead and had you meet me at the locality for large populations of these blue or green red spotted garters. I even took you into my house and showed you my collection of rare snakes. We found you a nice female and I gave you a male from the small group I was keeping, I helped you found said captive populations :lol:

You then stated "Before 2010, most garter breeders around the world had never heard of them, let alone seen one. Some books mention them, but not a photo existed on paper or the web before I put them there in 2010" You saw my photos on here first... In the end it really comes down to our own conscious. I know I showed you these snakes as do you...and a couple of people who frequent this forum... I do find it funny you get so wrapped try to figure out what "morph" these are when in reality most garter snakes are highly variable and to me this seams to be a simple polymorhic population not a selectable trate.

Here is a photo of a large female from right before you came over...to see this snake :lol:

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I actually think its cool you bringing recognition to such an under appreciated species. I don't on the other hand thinks its cool you taking full credit and claiming its all you...hell I wouldn't even care so much if you didn't mention my name. People will be people and and most are hugely ego driven so if you feel the need to fuel your ego, so be it. We both know that's not the case :) I on the other hand don't give to much of a stinky musk...it's just a cool looking garter snake :)

Nate
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concinnusman
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Re: Western WA highlights

Post by concinnusman »

Indafield wrote: You saw photo's of MINE pre crash...either on this site or another and we talked several times.

Yes I know what you're talking about but that's not exactly how I recall it. You posted pics of some unusually colored concinnus'(like yellow spotted and/or greenish) and made a vague reference as to what part of Oregon you were in. I then got on the web and checked maps for possible herping sites in that part of Oregon and just happened to stumble onto the very same location you were herping in. This doesn't come as a surprise being how experienced herpers know where to look for snakes.
Indafield wrote: I went ahead and had you meet me at the locality for large populations of these blue or green red spotted garters.
Yes I know. But I had already found them and been there three times before I actually met you there. I do recall my visit to your house and even posted a clip here of your cribo: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iGl6khskVIQ
Indafield wrote:I helped you found said captive populations
In a way, I suppose you did. You motivated me to go see if I could find them myself and I did. Your part in making this happen is hereby acknowledged.
Indafield wrote:You saw my photos on here first...
I do recall the exact thread (on another forum) and I can still find it. What it showed was snakes that are not quite the normal orange, not the blue morph completely lacking orange but who cares about details. And to be honest, I couldn't tell from the photos if the colors were really different or if I was looking at a camera effect so It didn't even really click. So, when I arrived at that location it was still a surprise to me to find the different colored snakes. I was simply there because you mentioned it was an overwintering location with a high concentration of snakes. When I set out to find them, their color was the last thing on my mind.

Indafield wrote: I do find it funny you get so wrapped try to figure out what "morph" these are when in reality most garter snakes are highly variable and to me this seams to be a simple polymorhic population not a selectable trait.
I'm not interested in morph labels so I don't really care "what morph" they are but I am interested in how the genetics works so I've been breeding to find out more. "polymorphic population not a selectable trait" It would appear that way, wouldn't it? But you're wrong. I've done some breeding work with them over the past 3 years. The blue morph, completely lacking orange, is selectable and predictable. What is not predictable is the degree of influence the morph has in the offspring of mixed pairings, such as a blue/anery to a normal or to a snake that has only partially inherited the trait. Such pairings produce offspring which can grow to inherit the color completely, only partially, or not at all. In other words, it is a morph. It's just that it's incomplete dominant (not to be confused with co-dominant) A blue-to-blue pairing produces snakes that will all look like their parents (once they grow up) and only the degree/shade of bluing varies. I also discovered that the influence doesn't usually show at birth. Most of the offspring I've produced look 100% normal at birth or a few are somewhat hypoerythristic in appearance. It's only when they approach maturity that they complete the color change.
Indafield wrote:Here is a photo of a large female from right before you came over...to see this snake

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Which brings up something else I've discovered. Notice she doesn't appear very blue in your photo? It depends on the temperature. That very same snake when cold (or brumating) has no blue at all, but here's the same snake when very warm.
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she's still doing well BTW but has failed year after year, to produce a litter even when she mates so she's a good "poster child" example of the morph but has contributed nothing to captive lines. She mates but has never ovulated at all. I have since successfully bred pairs much bluer (and larger) than her that I got myself from a location much farther south. The babies were born normal but have since grown to be very blue like their parents. Last season a 3ft+ blue one of mine produced 29 healthy offspring and the sire was also very blue. Again they all looked pretty normal but I don't expect them to stay that way.
Indafield wrote: I actually think its cool you bringing recognition to such an under appreciated species. I don't on the other hand thinks its cool you taking full credit and claiming its all you.
I wouldn't dare. I am only taking credit for what I have actually done so I'm not sure what you're wanting credit for other than what I already mentioned near the top of this post. As for the discovery (and first description) of this color morph, neither of us can take credit for that. My only claim is that searching for them on the web prior to 2010 would yield nothing prior to me uploading dozens of images every year and so now if you want to google it, you will find photos which I put there. That, in addition to the captive breeding of the morph, figuring out the genetics, and increasing /establishing a greater awareness of their existence to the captive hobby is all I am claiming. Also, they are far from under-appreciated. They've always been a popular ssp. but color morphs other than normal are largely unavailable in the trade and unknown to those living outside their range.

It's really not that big of a deal to me who gets credit for what. I was just as surprised as you, at the fact that the global hobby was largely unaware of this color morph before 2010. All I've done is get them some increased exposure/awareness of their existence and establish captive breeding lines. Knowing what can happen I have kept location specifics to myself, as you did and we should probably keep it that way. Some of the first CB offspring are now blue adults ready to breed. That should be enough so that collecting will no longer be necessary for people to enjoy them in captivity. Some of my long term captives have just bred too so I expect litters again this year.

Now Nate, if you really want some credit for a new captive phenotype I am still extremely interested in that "florescent" "pastel" looking bright orange phenotype. I have not since seen a snake quite like that one I gave you to make a pair for you to breed.
photo of yours:
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photo of the one I found and gave you to make a pair:
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Was wondering if they ever produced but I lost your number and PM's on another forum went unanswered. I then moved to SoCal for a year but I'm back now. Even polygenic phenotypes can be selected for to increase the frequency they occur in wild populations and certainly in captivity. I've done it with northwesterns so it can certainly be done with concinnus', polygenic or not.

I certainly would have mentioned your part in this but all I really knew is that "some guy named Nate" or "redspot" talked about them before I found them so there wasn't much to say. :-/ I have PM'd you my cell #. I would appreciate if you called.
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