New data request

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Jimi
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Joined: December 3rd, 2010, 12:06 pm

New data request

Post by Jimi »

Hi guys,

Not sure if the self-advertizing is kosher, but I just submitted a data request to HERP. Psyon/Don put up a link in the Announcements page. The 10-day discussion period has started (that's where Don's link takes you, once you sign in). After that time, I think e-mails are sent soliciting a vote about releasing the records. Not sure who all gets those e-mails - all members with records within the scope of the request???

Thanks,
Jimi
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Bryan Hamilton
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Re: New data request

Post by Bryan Hamilton »

I got an e-mail. Now I just need to figure out how to log in.

Its great to see an agency using the database.
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Ah, so that's how that works - Psyon sends e-mails. Or he rigged up a robot to do it. I'm not a member since I don't have 50 records in the d-base - I don't get the e-mails.

Happily mine is not the only agency making these requests. My request in late 2011 (DR #9 I think) might have been the first but in the subsequent 40-some data requests, perhaps 15-25% of those have been from other state or federal agencies. The trend is good. With 1) higher volume, quality, & relevance of the data, and 2) higher awareness of HERP by agencies, agency use will only increase.

Anyway Bryan, I just looked, saw you got yourself logged in - thanks for the support! See you in a couple months on the speck round-up I hope.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Fundad
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Re: New data request

Post by Fundad »

Ah, so that's how that works - Psyon sends e-mails. Or he rigged up a robot to do it. I'm not a member since I don't have 50 records in the d-base - I don't get the e-mails.
Jimi, 50 records in the D-Base is only for board member items, 'not' anything related to data requests.

'Every' Single person that has a record to release in a data request will be emailed, once during the discussion and again once a vote is needed.

If anyone is confused on that portion of the process, please feel free to reach out to me.

Fundad
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Huh. I guess I'm still a little confused. When I signed up to be a HERP member I found out I couldn't be one until I got to 50 records in HERP. Meh, fine by me. So I'm not a member.

So I guess you're saying anybody with a record will get an email? Except presumably a data requester who also has a record in the dbase? 'Cause I didn't. (I didn't really expect Don would have written the little "requester-exception" into his auto e-mail script; I just assumed that's what he's done, rather than figure out recipients by hand every time. Maybe he just kindly cut me out of the recipient list after it was generated, to reduce my junk-mail load? That's a level of customer service I certainly don't expect!!!)

Anyway, "procedural fine detail" here. I'm not really interested in how this stuff works, as long as I just understand what I have to do next as part of my request. I wouldn't want to consume anyone's time to generate a response, but I guess we could tie this off "correctly" so as not to leave anyone confused (?) Or if anyone is interested they can just ask Fundad 1:1 (?)

Thanks/sorry for the confusion,
Jimi
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Fundad
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Re: New data request

Post by Fundad »

Huh. I guess I'm still a little confused. When I signed up to be a HERP member I found out I couldn't be one until I got to 50 records in HERP. Meh, fine by me. So I'm not a member.
It's not true Jimi, if you have a single record you're a member. It's the board members (Trustees)that we require 50 records for. That said we are working on exceptions to that rule.
So I guess you're saying anybody with a record will get an email?
Yeap, anyone with a "record" in "that" particular request should be getting an email. If not please check the email settings in the HERP profile or spam filter.
Anyway, "procedural fine detail" here. I'm not really interested in how this stuff works, as long as I just understand what I have to do next as part of my request. I wouldn't want to consume anyone's time to generate a response, but I guess we could tie this off "correctly" so as not to leave anyone confused (?) Or if anyone is interested they can just ask Fundad 1:1 (?)
As far as know all you have to do is receive the data.

Not sure about the rest here, I am really wanting and trying to help? I appreciate you and this request greatly, if I didn't make that clear, I apologize fiercely.

Fundad
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Fundad, I know you're wanting & trying to help, and I thank you for it! As for 50, 1, "membership", etc - maybe you can make sense of this e-mail exchange from Jan 7-8, 2014? Cause I'm no more cleared-up than ever. Nate had me convinced. And if anyone else is following along, reading this might not leave them feeling sure of much either.
Hi Jimi,

Thanks for supporting HERP with your payment of $25. Unfortunately you do not meet the 50 record minimum requirement for membership. To clear up any potential confusion, using of the database at naherp.com is free and membership is not required. But we can accept your payment as a donation, and I can implement your membership status after you have reached the minimum requirement. Or if you would like, I can refund your money.

Thank You,
Nate Nazdrowicz
Executive Director pro tempore
Thanks Nate. Yeah I saw that later upon reading the fine print. Keep it as a donation. Not sure how much effort I'll put into database entries - I have other repositories to use, easily.

Cheers
Jimi

Sent from my iPhone
Does this clarify anything? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something very basic (a word definition, or something?) Meanwhile I'll check my HERP profile e-mail settings too. Thanks again.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Fundad
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Re: New data request

Post by Fundad »

We haven't worked out the wording, and it's the word membership that should have been replaced with "Trustee" or "Board Member"

The 50 record limit was set to insure "trustees" involved in the voting had a "vested" interest, so many previous conversations and votes concerning the database had people with zero or 1 records going on and on about what the database should do. We will be considering other items in place of the 50 records (for example someone with your credentials and experience should be added), I suspect, very soon.

We just started this, I hope, and I ask kindly for your patience?

Fundad
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Ah, I see. I do a lot of "writing by committee" and I feel your pain.
We will be considering other items in place of the 50 records (for example someone with your credentials and experience should be added)
I'm sure you'll maintain your process integrity - please just subject me to whatever the criteria are for everybody else. The results will be whatever they will be.

Cheers,
Jimi
TimCO
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Re: New data request

Post by TimCO »

I've released all of my relevant records, and encourage everyone to do the same.
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Fundad
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Re: New data request

Post by Fundad »

I too will release all of my records... Thank You Jimi for the request..

I wish we had more Utah records, and that I had more to provide to this request. Note to self: I must work Utah more.

Fundad
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

I'm thinking more Chapter field trips. The Dino one last May was pretty fun! And I like how many rocks a group of guys can flip. Looking at that species list in my data request - the east side is still pretty prime.

- I would love to re-visit San Juan county - specifically the Abajos and surrounding mesas and canyons. Not so much along the river. I'm more curious about greensnakes and skinks and blackneck garters.
- I would love to herp the San Rafael Swell & Reef with a bunch of guys.
- Above and along the Book Cliffs - northern Grand and southern Uintah Counties - is a total black hole of herp records.
- Western Emery County - where the Wasatch Plateau falls away to desert - is curiously lacking herper attention, and to me offers some great potential for diversity and numbers.
- Brian Eagar has a particular species target at a particular quarry. Maybe we could tag along with him and provide more flipping bodies. Basically, all of us together could equal what he can do alone - so we could double the effort.
- A (pipe???) dream is a flat-water float & herp trip in inflatable kayaks. Float, herp, camp, repeat. There are a couple of easy, fairly safe runs on the Green & Colorado main stems.

There are also a few west-side areas that could use some attention - and would facilitate a bi-state bash. The great tricolor mysteries still remain out there, for example. Pyros in the mountains, milks in between...where are they?

I can see the recent run of 60-degree weather has suckered me into thinking spring is just around the corner. Time for a nice blizzard smackdown, probably...

Finally - Fundad take a look at the drought monitor. How do you spell C-A-L-I-S-U-C-K-S? Save your gas money and free time. Come back up here, we got some moisture!!! Maybe you can flip The Emery County Record Milk. Bring the other Brian too.

cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: New data request

Post by Rancorrye »

Jimi, I've spent a little time poking around Western Emery and Carbon Counties. There are some interesting areas out that way, but I've been skunked every time besides some sagebrush lizards and Utas. It could definitely use a few more sets of eyes. In Carbon Co. I herped around the Gordon Creek WMA and a few of the surrounding areas. It seemed like there should be quite a bit of diversity and I would like to try out that way again.

Last year I drove through West Emery County and took the Moore Cut Off Road down to I-70. That was a pretty neat area as well. It was a little early in the season so there wasn't much moving yet. Just some more Scelops and Utas. I would like to try this area again during a better time. There is a lot of unexplored terrain out that way. On that same trip I drove down through the Swell and found some interesting areas that I'd also like to check out during a more favorable time. I did manage 5 lizard species and a red spotted toad, so not all bad.

Another area close by that I haven't been to is the Little Grand Canyon/The Wedge area. I think this would be a nice area to explore on a weekend trip with a bunch of people. If we could get a group down in these areas I think there is some potentially for a lot to be found.

Rye
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Hi Rye,

Even though it's only a couple hours away, I always seem to get to that western fringe of the CO Plateau a little bit late in the season. At least, too late for flipping. I've cruised all the paved roads (there aren't many) May-Sept and nearly all the gravel and dirt (confirming others' observation that night-cruising unpaved roads in eastern Utah utterly sucks). I did cruise a little night snake up Ferron Canyon (gravel...) once. On the pavement I've only gotten maybe 6 snake taxa, with gophers & concolor far & away the most-represented. Not the best cruising I've had in Utah, I tell ya. On the other hand, not the worst, ha ha. (Oh, San Juan!)

What I really want to do - en masse - is flip the heck out of the band topping out a little above 7000'. I'm curious for example about concolor/lutosus contact points, or overlap, or gap. And wouldn't a Utah-county record concolor be neat? It seems possible walking Price canyon. And I think flipping will be how someone gets the milk that surely is waiting to be found in Emery (say, Mohrland). Several of us (me included) have gotten them very close by, just barely into Carbon. There's so much gravelly bouldery outwash from those canyons it ought to be a snap if we time it right and just put in the man-hours.

NE Emery, along the Book Cliffs, seems another very likely place to get the county-record milk. More gravelly-bouldery outwash prime for flipping, within its window. Just sayin', guys...

I laid out a little (10-12 large pieces?) boardline on Gordon Creek WMA a couple years ago, it should be well-seasoned by now. Close to pavement, a quick-check spot I'd love to share so it actually does get checked now & then. No reason for someone to not to get a milk or two there. With that oak brush I also half-heartedly wonder about some range extensions, too (greens? boas?).

Moore cut-off is always cold when I hit it, even in July, it's surprisingly high and it seems to have some weird cool-off thing going on (even with no irrigation). I think it's flip or cruise nothing there. Nothing but cold gophers anyway. I wonder what Eagar's gotten on it (is there any pavement in Utah he hasn't cruised?).

Finally - the Swell proper. I'd love to put in some time along the perennial watercourses. Flipping of course, but also keeping eyes out for leopard frogs. Mostly I've been out there when it's too cold or too hot for much herp activity. LGC would be fun, I've only bopped around the overlook, not under it.

So, maybe we can try & hit some of this stuff early this May? If night-time lows permit it?

Cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: New data request

Post by Rancorrye »

Well, I think I found your boardline in Gordon Creek :lol: (I was wondering who's it was) No worries, everything was placed back in its original spot when I was out there, but that was 2012.

The first weekend in May I'll be in St. George and the third weekend I'll be backpacking down in Kane Co. That should be the only stuff I have planned for May. Maybe we could shoot for the second weekend (9th-11th) if no one else has anything planned then and weather permitting?
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Well, I think I found your boardline in Gordon Creek :lol: (I was wondering who's it was) No worries, everything was placed back in its original spot when I was out there, but that was 2012.
Great! Seriously. My only quibble would be - if you thought any were in a dumb spot (too much under a bush or whatever), go ahead and tweak the line. And I guess - it would have been pretty fresh when you found it. I think I laid it out in March 2012. It was still cool out & the vegetation was still dormant, but I was in a hurry to get it out there for the season.

What'd you think of the design? Tarp-on-dirt, with a plywood-under-pallet cover on the tarp? Not targeting crotes at all, more like stuff that likes a snug fit and some moisture - milks and (maybe???) boas & greens. I was also thinking the pallet slats would provide shade - help the plywood & tarp from getting too hot, even later in the season. Just trying to explain my reasoning, you probably were thinking "what was this guy thinking?!?!". I personally think AC has potential utility anywhere, it's the timing, materials & fine-scale placement that's tricky. Lots of discussion of AC in Utah over the years.

Mother's Day weekend - works for me! Let's pencil it in. Where you going in Kane? Ever done the middle Paria, below Sheep Creek? Lovely. They have abyssus too.

Cheers,
Jimi
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Rancorrye
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Re: New data request

Post by Rancorrye »

Ah, interesting design. I figured there was some kind of method to the madness. The first board I found I thought it was just a random discarded board. Then I found another like it and another.... After that I figured they were probably intentionally placed out there. I think I only found 4 or 5 though. It would be interesting to put just a plain old board next to one of your Frankenstein boards and see if one was preferred over the other. Also to see if there were temp or moisture differences, etc.

I went out a couple of weeks ago and laid out a few more boards in an area that I already had some. Probably have about a dozen or so out there now. This warm weather is killing me. Can't wait 'till I can finally go out and check them. Not too much longer, but I sure am antsy.

I'm headed down to Willow Gulch down Hole in the Rock Road. Any herps I see will probably just be the incidental run-ins throughout the hike. I may poke around wherever we decide to camp as well too, 'cause you know I can't help myself. I've never done the Paria, but it has been on my list for awhile. So many places in Utah to explore.

Rye
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

At that creek crossing, I put 3-4 pieces on each of the "quadrants". So there are similar numbers each side of the creek, and also each side of the culvert (up- and down-stream). Some are down by the water (those may have departed in last summer's insane monsoon flashes...), some are up along (below) rimrock, some are in oakbrush, some are in tall weeds, some are in short grass. Full diversity, and very little replication.

Another aspect to my design - maintaining rigidity or full-ground-contact. It isn't an issue in humid areas but in dry climates most wooden AC seems to warp upward so that the only ground contact is maintained near the center, and little moisture is retained for long by the AC. I figured the pallets will not warp, so screwing thin plywood to the undersides wouldn't be a waste of my materials or labor. Finally, I figured the upper pallet slats would provide a little cover from avian predation, as well as a safer (snakebite etc...) & convenient hand- or hook-hold for flippers.

So basically I spent some time making up a nice story to tell myself, before embarking on the outsized PITA that a establishing a boardline far from home entails. So I feel better about the effort. Everybody's funny...I'm funny too.

The Escalante watershed is a presumptive contact zone between concolor and abyssus; regrettably the world does not yet know which rattlesnake(s) live there. There has been some material collected for genetic analysis but unfortunately the academics we permitted for that action did not follow through with their research. And AFAIK still have the samples, "not for sharing", either at Champaign/Urbana or GA Tech. So, it would be most helpful to e.g. salvage some more, and get it into a curated museum collection.

Present legal realities don't help with this, but some of us have devised a workaround - Jack at BYU has a "master salvage" permit, and there are a number of local herpers listed as sub-permittees. If you were interested, you could contact him and see about getting added as a sub-permittee. You'll be running HRR during prime-time for crote surface activity, coincident with outdoorsy types playing outside. You could find a DOR. I could give you a Geneti-kit with all the tools & supplies one needs for harvesting scientifically-useful tissues from DORs. No pressure, just an offer.

Cheers,
Jimi
Jimi
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Re: New data request

Post by Jimi »

Just wanted to follow up with a big "thank you!" - I appreciate your data and support.

cheers,
Jimi
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jonathan
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Re: New data request

Post by jonathan »

Anyone ever end up organizing some Utah field trips last year?
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