I've read a lot of this, and I've come to a conclusion.

I have three churches on the road I live on. They're Christian, not that makes it any better, but three of them. I was wondering why once, why are there three in this little town. I think they must have had discussions like we're having, and had to divide to get a consensus. I really hope we don't have to have 3 or more FieldHerpForums.

In your church example, Justin, I think a comparably posed question might be something like "Should the term 'Christian' exclude some practice performed by some but not all churches currently considered to be Christian?" (Sorry to speak in such general terms, but I don't want to upset anyone by accidentally touching upon their specific religious practices.) For my part, I agree that it's in some ways unfortunate that all of those people can't celebrate their faith together under one roof, but I think it would be much worse if the members of this church were saying about the members of that church, "They're not Christian, over there, because they do such-and-such!"

Gerry

five pages of silly arguing. collecting is part of the herpers evolution. that's where the appreciation comes from. i've mentioned this before on page one or two. justin is right. where will it end. a hundred definitions for herpers?

if there is a herper out there who went directly to no collect conservation, i'd like to hear from you. if you have even collected one snake, you cannot say a word to those who do (unless laws are being broken).

i brought it up before. how bout collecting ethics. there are plenty of ways to do it with minimal to no impact of populations.

-ben

Cheers! I'm happy to see an example of what can happen when someone interested in herps meets our community and learns from it.

@ Justinm and Gbin...I don't think its unfortunate at all that groups of any sort (churches, hobbyists, etc.) have to define what they are. If terms like "Christian" and "field herpers" are not defined, then they have no meaning. Describing, thinking, categorizing, defining...these are all a part of being human.

I don't think we are at the point of dividing the field herping community over this. In my opinion, if we here at FHF made a majority decision to not include skin traders, subsistence hunters and Sweetwater snake murderers in the term field herpers, I don't think we would loose a single forum goer. Those types simply don't participate here, another reason why I think (consensus or not) they are not field herpers.

I've heard this before and while I get what you are trying to communicate, I don't like the statement. To me this implies that the more "evolved" herper has stopped collecting, which I don't think is always correct. To use myself as an example, I collected a lot early on, I slowed down as time went by, now I hardly collect anything. However If I found a particularly interesting animal tomorrow, I might keep it (respecting laws).

I think the more "evolved" herper puts more thought and consideration into the decision to collect a particular specimen. I do NOT think that collecting is some sort of rudimentary or basal part of field herping that is "moved past" by the higher herper. That's just elitist nonsense.

Certainly some field herpers who started as collectors have now become completely hands off, but that is a personal journey of their own and doesn't not indicate they are somehow better or more advanced. This type of personal decision certainly does not speak for the entire field herping community.

Andy stated:



Andy, I agree with you. While technically the terms "field" + "herping" may or may not have a broader meaning when taken together (as discussed here), the term as I understand it from reading this forum and field herping myself would be exactly what Andy states. This however, is just my opinion and I recognize that there are other valid opinions too. No on here is the

Justin also mentions the 3 church analogy, which I think is an excellent one. We don't need to start 3 field herp forums. I think that flexibility is important and allowing others beliefs to be different. We don't want to be dogmatic. We want to respect each other. Live and let live.

I personally do not like collecting, but I know there are plenty of valid reasons to collect. Last week end I was in S. IL. and came across the most beautiful, shiny kingsnake. I wanted to keep it. I resisted that temptation and put him right back where I found him. This week end I purchased 2 captive breed kingsnakes at Tinley (Chicago breeders). I also realize that it would not be possible from me to have these beautiful captive breed snakes if someone had not originally collected some snakes originally. So, I do not bash collecting. I do feel however, that for me, there is a lot of value and enjoyment gained in simply observing and photographing herps in the wild without collecting them.

i agree with you completely. i do not intend to define "herper evolution" here. what i mean is that tendencies to evolve happen. where each individual falls, is always different. there is no way to define it completely. as you say, you give it more thought now. this just proves the many differences between individuals. there is nothing wrong with this, in fact, it will create health. dividing will only hurt. if you do not take into account differing viewpoints by surrounding yourself with like-minded people, you will hurt everything.

as far as redefining "field herping" goes, i think it's a bad idea.

as i mentioned, why not seriously consider more prudent collecting tactics. it's a win-win proposition for everyone, and thus staying together, which is best in my opinion.

-ben

I'd agree with that. I don't think an "advanced" herper would collect willy nilly but I also don't think collecting an animal on occasion means you're not advanced or capable.

How come he can use that word and I get blasted for using it.

I do agree that there is an evolution in field herping and it is not always in the direction of more observation and less collecting.

Denominations, trust me, it's the only way to go. We can still be one big happy family under the shade of the FHF umbrella. Your denomination (belief system about field herping) is displayed below your avatar. This way, if you make a comment I disagree with, I can look at your avatar and see why you made the comment (e.g. believe it's okay to handle venomous snakes, pose snakes for hours, collect, anti-collect, etc.). This will virtually eliminate disagreements resulting in a more peaceful and accepting forum. We could even create our own COEXIST bumper stickers.

I couldn't agree more, which is why I felt the term "fishing" needed more definition. I belong to a fishing forum and started a thread like Gerry's: Should the term "fishing" exclude collecting the fish?

For some reason, the members of that forum didn't quite understand my motives for starting the thread. I told them about the "underground movement" that practically mocked people who caught fish and kept them. In fact, the "collectors" that believed it was okay to eat the fish were made fun of and told they really weren't "fishing". Hence, my reasoning for wanting to redefine the term "fishing".

In the end, the majority of the forum members told me to STFU and get a life. They said fishing was just something most of them did as a hobby and they enjoyed the forum for the stories, tips, and photos.

Now THAT was funny... jim

I've actually been a fish enthusiast much longer than a herp enthusiast, and believe it or not, when you step away from fishing (in which there are debates about whether it's ok to keep or instead just catch and release, to use live bait or only artificial lures, etc.), there are indeed people who collect fish for home aquaria and people who only observe/photograph the fish they find. Discussions of collecting can get especially heated when the focus is marine species. I'm not kidding.

I haven't been a part of any organization devoted to fish in a long time now, but the name some fish enthusiasts used for themselves that I always preferred back when was "fish heads." I still think of myself as one such, every bit as much as I think of myself as a herper.

Gerry

Robk, who are you, lol.

hellihooks, I appreciate that. Sometimes we all act similarly when we are emotionally charged about something near and dear to us.

I am glad this was brought up! I think everyone here can come to the agreement that we want the conservation of the animals first. However, historically speaking some of the biggest names in herpetology have collected specimens, and some for personal use; this is a big difference from commercial collecting! Most people I know that occasionally collect, rescue an animal that was about to get hit and was already doomed. Surely there is nothing wrong with this type of collecting as long as it does not get greedy. Because so many of us release more animals than we keep I don't think collection is really even a concern, so it should all be considered Field Herping.

Another side note: I have been on a few outings when some people got a little upset because people had collection permits for animals being collected for DNA reasons. I don't want any animal to die, but at the same time I see the importance of what we can learn from this analysis. We herpers always debate over the validity of species and subspecies and this simply brings some clarity to the situation. I have no problem with collection for this reason and I don't think anyone else should. ONE ANIMAL WILL NOT PHASE A POPULATION!
William

I agree William. Though I don't keep much personally, I see nothing wrong with an occasional wild caught pet. What I have issues with is mass collecting for selling or any reason. Which unfortunately, without collecting laws and so on people get greedy and one pet turns into 100 snakes quick. One or two snakes will not harm any populations, dozens a day will in my opinion. Also, if someone is going to take anything from the wild, they better make sure they have the resources to PROPERLY care for it, otherwise that's just greedy. I stress properly because so many people think proper care is easy when in fact many snakes can be high maintenance. My philosophy is, don't take what what you can't properly take care of, and don't take more than you need. Of course nobody needs any but I think it's self explanatory.

While this may have been true 30+ years ago, given the advances in captive husbandry and breeding, and the subsequent widespread availability of captive-bred animals, do y'all think relaxed laws (such as more generous bag limits or certain species open to collection) would necessarily cause wild-caught numbers in the pet trade to skyrocket?

The truly greedy might see such laws as merely minor obstacles to circumvent...they will only supply what the consumer demands...why go catch 100 of an animal that a consumer can purchase for a comparable price captive-bred (or even a higher price, happily paid to reduce demand on wild-caught)?

I, too, have experienced a few herp related trips where an unknown person shows up with a permit asking for help collecting whatever it is they need at the time. I respect science immensely, but having a permit doesn’t mean squat to me, especially if I don’t know this person or have a clue what kind of research they’re doing (other than what they tell me in a quick 5 min recap). For me, it puts a damper on a herp trip when you weren’t expecting “unknown permit dude” and now feel obligated to share your finds because “unknown permit dude” (henceforth called UPD) has a permit.

The other problem I have with UPD is showing him places where some of the harder to find herps are located. What’s to prevent UPD from telling other UPD’s that if they need to find rare herp XYZ, he knows a spot to find them? If UPD needs XYZ herp, they sure as hell aren’t going to “find their own spot” when someone has taken them to a location they know has XYZ herp.



Collecting one or two herps isn’t my concern, Fringe Collector Dude is my concern. FCD isn’t really that interested in field herping or being outdoors for that matter, he’ll tag along with friends who field herp and occasionally collect a snake now and then. FCD has a few other FCD friends and once in a while they go out on their own after being exposed to some decent spots to herp (it’s easier than looking for their own spots). One of the FCD’s happens to know a commercial collector dude (CCD) and they get to talking over a few beers. CCD says he’s been looking for a ABC snake, and not wanting to look like a geek, FCD tells him he knows a great spot for ABC snakes.

I've collected on scientific permit, but not like that! In fact, I've rarely collected from a site that I didn't find myself (though I don't know how common that is). I absolutely agree, UPD should have to do a decent job of making his/her case just to obtain samples/specimens (let alone to join in their collection) through you, and should still be treated with caution until well known before being shown spots you feel at all protective toward. Waving a permit isn't enough.

Gerry

WTH! actually... just kidding... my head was spinning with so many abbreviations...that one just came out.
Generally speaking, at our Nafha surveys (here in Ca) only the hosting entity can request or do any collecting. And we addressed the problem of uninvited 'guests' at the surveys, by stipulating that members from other chapters were (and are) welcome, if they ask in advance (which is simply good manners).
My other reason for posting is to mention one more type of person who might just show up, which I believe I've seen twice. F&GP (plant) guy. Guy shows up at several nafha events I lead, (back in the days of our 'open to the public outings'... Nobody knows him from Adam, or even heard of him before. Says he just likes to travel the country, to herp... FL, TX, AZ, and now Ca. UmmmHummmm. Went by the name 'HippieFlipper'....but WAY to young to be a hippy (22/23?) Never seen a post from him, or heard anything about him since.
I could be wrong, but don't think I am... Please correct me if I am HP... I didn't really care... nice enough guy... knew his herps and how to herp... and nothing gets collected at an event I"M hosting (far as I know. That said, what folks do on their way to and from the event is up to them) We now (Nafha Ca.) have a survey FOR Ca. F&G in the offing...
But yeah... that's ONE of the reasons Ca Nafha has moved away from 'open to the public' outings... places we held outings were invariably getting thrashed and over-herped... cyaa.. jim

I seem to remember over on Kingsnake the forum "Field Collecting".......
add plenty of drama, name calling, an overdose of egos and BS, and.. voila!.....
a new forum is born.......
:Mark

This made me laugh so hard... How is that different than what we have here... and Scott insisted that had nothing to do with this. This might be a new forum... it is certainly not different... as such.

happy to oblige...

:Mark

Tanks.

You must not remember the old one very well. The difference is better moderation, and a forum owner who isn't a drama queen

I remember it quite well... although your points are well taken. The moderation is more even keeled... I don't think Scott is a drama queen... although... I'll leave it at that... but... the rest is still fitting.

Troll,

Jeremiah only made two points, both of which you addressed. So either you're illiterate (I think you may be), or you have a reading comprehension and or drug problem? There's also your lack of grasp on when and how to use the ellipsis. You're using them to the point that they lose value and effect. If you don't like this forum, or it's owner/moderator, be a good guest and leave it to those who do want to use it. For everyone I know you've worn out the welcome.

(note to self... ignore)

Well I don't know about UPD asking for a certain animal. But if you had a friend come up to you and mention they had a UPD coming to collect for science, I have a hard time believing that you would feel comfortable anyways, and that is your prerogative, but the intentions of a UPD is not to rape any habitat but to learn about the animals, and one animal taken will not hurt the population. Having a professional on board actually makes the trip more enjoyable for me. One of the best spots in our state was shared; I ran into a couple others there, but I trust their judgement and the individual that shared.....



I make it a personal goal to never share some of my better spots with anyone. I have never shared a spot I knew some rare species were located at. NEVER HAVE NEVER WILL.......




It's the FCD's I am very suspicious off and if I get wind of the slightest possibility of knowing a CCD, I will not hang out with these individuals. I think it's a matter of getting out in the field with people and one can learn to trust them over Time. Over the phone or youtube is just not enough........

I will continue to hold professionals in high regard and I thoroughly enjoy learning from them. As a field herper I will always be careful who I invite to a spot, I think we all can agree on that.
William

I'd like to second your worry for FCD as well as CCD, but I would also add that RTTSIQ3TAYW/OTYD (ReturnsToTheSpotInQuestion3TimesAYearWithOutTellingYouDude) is also problematic because they tend to flip the boards you laid out an hour before you arrive.

Also, I hope it didn't bother you that I collected a few animals under my permit. I mean does it really make you feel a whole lot better when it's KPD instead of UPD?

LMAOTIPMP

See what I'm sayin'? They're all out to get us man! You can't trust anyone.

You're not just a KPD, you're a KPDWEWHCAHAID (KnowPermitDudeWhoEatsWhatHeCollectsAndHasAnIPhoneDude). I can trust you.

Sorry for all the acryonms and codes, it's spills over from my Scientology background.

Well... at least you're 'clear' about that... jim

I did "drama" back in my twenties, and a bit into my thirties. Boring. And no, I'm not a queen, either! I dig the band "Queen", though. Arguably the best front man in the history of rock......well, maybe right there with Ian Gillan.

scott

Queen is almost as overrated as Rolling Stones.

Almost... huh.

So, no posts for some days now on the actual topic of this thread. Unless more folks want to chime in (and you'd be most welcome!) with their thoughts on the question of whether the term "field herping" should exclude animal collecting, I'm content to let the thread drift down the message board.

Before that happens, does anyone think it would be worthwhile going through the thread and tallying up the responses? I'm willing to give it a shot (though not everyone was clear in their response), but won't bother if no one is particularly eager to see tabulated results.

Gerry

I don't see the point, really, Gerry. It's clear that next to no one is willing to publicly, clearly and unambiguously answer your title question in the affirmative. I confess I'm mildly surprised, but nonetheless pleased.

I did "drama" back in my twenties, and a bit into my thirties. Boring. And no, I'm not a queen, either! I dig the band "Queen", though. Arguably the best front man in the history of rock......well, maybe right there with Ian Gillan.

Never did drama but I am a Queen "fan" myself. Brian May has to be the most underated guitarist of all time. Deep Purple pretty good too. I tend to have my best luck while listening to Steely Dan.

Sorry to hijack this unsolvable post. Well maybe I can solve it. Field Herping - non collector, Field Herpetoculturist - collector. Personally I consider myself a want to be photographer/nature freak.

I think your answer is a resounding 'No', Gerry. Personally... I collect more than the average Nafha member, but then again have been doing LIVE Local Reptile talks for over a decade... Nothing draws a crowd in like live crotes.
A consensus of exactly who the term 'fieldherper' refers to, would be very helpful, if you would be willing to pursue that. Since I now understand your concerns (regarding open, fair and honest) I believe you will uphold those standards and report impartially. jim

Re: Herpetoculture. I think the word was coined by Phillipe de Vojolli(sp?) and "released" in an article in the Vivarium.

The glossary on "not allowed" defines herpetoculturist:
1. A person who breeds reptiles or amphibians. Generally the emphasis is on developing new strains or morphs of a particular species or on refining and developing breeding techniques, but anyone who makes a serious effort to breed reptiles and amphibians can be referred to as a Herpetoculturist. 2. A person who keeps or has a serious interest in reptiles or amphibians and is an active participant in the community of herpetoculture through involvement and participation in clubs and organizations, shows, lectures and symposia, or online in message boards and chat rooms.

So the term "field herpetoculturist" doesn't really make sense. If you want to specifically describe someone who collects I think I would just say "field collecter".