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 Post subject: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 22nd, 2011, 8:38 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Posts: 7016
Location: Hesperia, California.
As per request. Originally this was written as a article submission for Herp Nation Mag, and Robert H. was going to proofread/edit for me (as a more competent writer) and then condense it down to a 'sticky'. Not hearing back from Scott (not sure why... :crazyeyes: ) and with a contentious thread on the topic ongoing on FHF... I just went ahead and posted it.
If Robert or anyone else want to condense it down to sticky size, feel free. Might be a while before I have time... got some wheels back under me, but still gotta scrape up the $ to reg/insure it... :(
No one got the pun in the title...'Level Headed'? See... it uses 'levels' to...oh, never mind... :roll: :lol: :lol:

Locality Release Online
‘A Level-headed Approach’
Given the advent and tremendous growth of online forums devoted to specific fields of biological interest, such as ‘Field Herping’, the subject of Specific Locality has generated a considerable amount of controversy, regarding the why, where, when, and how much information should be made available publicly. As the Ca. Chapter Education Officer and an International Board Member of the North American Field Herper’s Association, I have taken it upon myself to try to develop a set of standards regarding ‘locality specificity’ for the NAFHA, the FHF, and any other online forums where these standards might possibly be utilized.

One of the most contentious issues contained within the Nafha paradigm is that of what constitutes too specific a public posting of locality information. This is understandable, as our membership is comprised of a broad array of levels of experience, from professional herpetologists to novice hobbyists trying to find and photograph their first creature. We also run the gamut from pure researchers collecting data for publication, to professional photographers, to field herping hobbyists, to reptile breeders selling captive-bred reptiles for a living. Not to mention the unscrupulous element who may access posted locality information purely for profit, and with no concern for conservation or the environment.

Additionally, we (Nafha) seem to have built-in diametrically opposed warrants contained within the scope of our Purpose Statement in our Bylaws, in that we propose to both conserve natural bio-diversity and habitat, while simultaneously inspiring “all people to enjoy and protect wild herpetofauna”. Indeed, it is the dichotomy between ‘enjoy’ and ‘protect’ that gives rise to the various opinions concerning the dissemination of ‘Locality Specific’ information. I would humbly suggest that the word ‘and’ is in fact the means to bridge this divide, by identifying the best level of publicly releasing locality information that will assist those seeking to ‘enjoy’ and satisfy those seeking to ‘protect’ while providing the unsavory element little to no advantage.

I would propose that we employ a tiered system of locality release, with the correct level of release realized through an examination of several salient factors.

These ‘Levels of Release’ would be:
a) Level 1—None to Co. level
b) Level 2—Region to major feature/city
c) Level 3—Specific locality to GPS Data

Which level to choose depends upon what type of post one wishes to submit, and I would suggest that they could be broken down as follows:
a) Photo post
b) Field Reports
i. Researcher Request/Report
ii.Citizen Scientist Request/Report
iii. Hobbyist Field Request/Report
iv. Novice Request/Report

Next, the contents, or subject of the post must also be taken into consideration. How commercially valuable, or even difficult to find a given species might be, and/or how fragile a given habitat may be, plays a deciding role in which level of release to choose. I would suggest these, as levels of sensitivity:
a) Sensitivity
i. Low
ii. Medium
iii. High

Also, one must consider ‘when’ to post… immediately, in-season/off-season, or year-end posts.

Finally, when considering either the intentional or unintentional release of locality information, one must consider how much information is contained within the habitat shots one might choose to include.

Taking all these factors into consideration, I will now try to provide some real-life examples of determining which level of release to utilize.

Type of Post

Along with collecting and submitting data, many of our members are exemplary photographers, and the focus (pun intended) is on presenting the herps they find and the places they visit in the most aesthetically pleasing manner possible. Little to no locality information is required, and one should keep locality information to a Level 1, and at the most, Level 2.

Next we have the ‘Field Reports’, which can be broadly broken down into four classes: Researcher Requests, Citizen Scientist report, Hobbyist Report, and Novice report.
Often, Researchers will request specific locality information towards determining range, intergradation zones, occurrence, and the like. Most researchers are discerning enough not to publicly request information for sensitive species and/or sensitive spots, without requesting that replies be sent via e-mail or private message. In the case however, when the information requested ranks Low on the sensitivity scale (say, Zebratail lizards) there should be no problem releasing locality information at Level 3, right down to precise GPS coordinates. That said, information that precise is just-as-well sent privately. It should also be noted that these types of ‘researcher requests’ typically result in what could be considered extreme or ‘outlier’ data, wherein the species in question is so rarely found at the revealed locality, that only a researcher would bear the expense and effort for confirmation… for all the other types of herpers out there, (including the unsavory element) it’s just not logical or fiscally practical to pursue these herps where they are so rarely encountered.

The ‘Citizen Scientist’ is a rather new and unique approach employed chiefly by the North American Field Herpers Association (NAFHA) towards the collection and storage (via the database) of herpetological data. The reports range from confirmations and surveys of well known populations of herps, to remnant, new, and/or introduced populations and range extensions of the herps in their regions, or in some cases for other herps they have traveled good distances to collect data on. With typically a keen eye towards conservation and habitat preservation, their field reports are typically kept to at Level 1, and at the most, Level 2, with Level 3 information passed privately. While often the citizen scientist may be satisfied with ‘voucher-level’ photos, some combine their passion for data collection with a passion for top-notch photography, resulting in simply breath-taking field reports.

The ‘Field Herping Hobbyist’ is another comparatively new manifestation in the herpetological milieu--- often a former reptile keeper who has come to realize that maintaining a digital collection of the herps they see is cheaper, more lasting and ecologically more morally justifiable than maintaining a collection of wild caught reptiles and amphibians. Many new members, recently developing an interest in field herping, are choosing the digital paradigm as the mainstay of their herping endeavors.

Finally we come to the Field Herping Novice, for whom this article is primarily intended, as they are typically unaware of the problems that too specific a release of information can cause (It should be noted that the term 'Novice' throughout this article can refer to either someone new to herping or someone new to posting online, although the primary audience is the 'new to herping' sector).This is compounded by the fact that it very exciting to find ‘lifers’ and the impulse to share every detail is difficult to control. I would politely suggest that they try to keep their releases of locality information to Level 1 or 2.

Eager to find lifers, but not yet knowing many people, we more-seasoned herpers often get novice-level request for the where, when and how to find all manner of target species, from very low on the sensitivity scale to very high. As Education Officer, I consider assisting those new to our hobby/vocation a critically important task, in that we are shaping the next generation of Field Herpers. When a ‘newb’ asks for help finding something medium to low on the sensitivity scale, it behooves the more seasoned members to help, either online or by pm, lest a novice herper inadvertently damages some sensitive habitat, searching on their own. Additionally, this gives the more season herper the chance to teach the less experienced how to herp properly, further reducing the possibility of damage from a ‘lack of experience’ in the field.

Quite often, the Novice has been attracted to the Fieldherping hobby by viewing exceptional shots of some of the more attractive and hard to find herps… Alterna, Zonata, Pines, ect, and set their sights on these lofty targets. My advice to them is to set their sights a bit lower, gain some experience in the field, and ideally try to get to know (by herping with) the more seasoned herpers in their area, towards earning the trust required, for more seasoned herpers to accommodate requests for assistance/advice with the more sensitive species.

Sensitivity
Species Sensitivity is often the hardest factor to contain. When we find something exceptional, the urge to share our success is hard to resist, even for the most seasoned herpers. Fortunately, the more seasoned herper will usually be wise enough to keep locality information to a minimum. But the problem is, different people consider different herps sensitive, especially with the trend in Herpetoculture moving towards ‘Locality Specific’ captive breeding. Here in Ca., many people (myself included) consider specific localities of rosys and kingsnakes very sensitive, due to the amazing locality variability of these snakes, and the loss of their habitat to development. Other species, such as Ca. Tiger Salamanders and Arroyo Toads are, or are becoming very rare, and require special permits to pursue, for any reason, and are by law, considered either sensitive or protected.

And often, it’s not so much that a given species is ‘sensitive’--- its more that their habitat gets damaged by careless and/or inexperienced herpers… rocks not replaced, outcrops torn apart, ect. Great care and consideration must be given to potential habitat degradation, as sometimes, even footsteps can cause a great amount of habitat degradation, as is the case here in the Mojave Desert. I would suggest that when trying to figure out ‘where’ to find any given herp, additional research on the given herp’s habitat should be done, to avoid unintended damage.
As a Californian, I can only speak to what I (personally) would consider ‘sensitive’ and ‘non-sensitive’ in my area, but a ‘sensitivity scale’ should be applicable for any given area.

In my area, I would consider most lizards and amphibians ‘low’ on the sensitivity scale, depending upon the size of their ranges, and the relative difficulty and/or effort required for finding them. Side Blotch lizards, Fence Swifts, Whiptail Lizards, Western Toads, Garden Slender/Blackbelly Salamanders, and Tree Frogs come to mind as wide-ranging lizards and amphibians that are easy to find, and given no other conflicting factors… there should be no problems (or complaints) with even a ‘Level 3’ release of locality specificity online. That’s not to say, of course, that other examples from those two families, should not rate either ‘Medium’ or ‘High’ on a sensitivity scale.

Generally speaking, I would consider species like Crotaphytus, Gambelia, Phrynosoma and Petrosaurus ‘Medium’ (Level 2 release) and herps like most Xantusia, Coleonyx switaki, and Heloderma suspectum would rate as ‘High’ (Level 1 release) on a ‘sensitivity scale.

With some species, like Sandstone Night Lizards (X. gracilis) and Kern Plateau Slender Salamanders (B.robustus), I won’t be surprised if some take umbrage to me even mentioning them, in this article, which highlights the point that nearly anything anyone posts will have ‘fans’ out there who consider any release of information too much.

Therefore, I chose the examples I used as (hopefully) the least ‘controversial’, and leave it up to each Chaper/Region to draw up what they would consider to be ‘Low’, ‘Medium’ or ‘High’ on a sensitivity scale.

When to Post
While even a bit of research will generally let one know the best times of year to look for about any given species, here in Ca the posting of the first King, Rosy, Zonata, or Rubber Boas of the year, will generally trigger a mad rush to both the general areas and specific well-known spots for these herps, which all to often results in spots getting thrashed. Therefore, many Nafha Members here in Ca. have entered into what we call the ‘Gentleman’s Agreement” wherein we wait until the season for some of the herps that many of us would rate ‘medium’ to ‘high’, is (at the very least) well under way, or over, before posting on them. This may be a factor in some people waiting till the end of the year to post, as well, although for some—they are actually too busy out herping as much as they can while the herping is good, to take the time to make a good post.

Personally… I still have a hard time not posting bout everything I see, the same day I see it, but since I’ve had what could only be described as a very ‘pedestrian’ year, herp-wise this year, I haven’t had to force myself to wait. I think that once the season is fully underway, there should be no problem posting either field reports or photo posts, for species that would range from ‘low’ to ‘medium’ on a sensitivity scale, at the recommended ‘level of release’.


Habitat Shots

Very often, ‘Habitat Shots’ are included in field reports, and great care should be given to how much Locality Information can be gleaned from these shots. In addition to not posting shots from ‘Vista Points’, Identifying signage, and well-known landmarks, I would further suggest not to even post pictures of unique features, such as unusual rock formations or readily identifiable trees. A habitat shot should be kept as ‘generic’ as possible, while still portraying the type of habitat a given herp might utilize. The exception of course, would be where someone post photos of a trip to well-know places like Yosemite or the Grand Canyon, and the locality is a given.

Conclusion
My hope in writing this article is mostly that our newer members get a leg up on this often-contentious issue, and gain some understanding as to why some folks post quite differently than they might. My hope is that they, and perhaps even some of the more seasoned guys, consider the type of post, the subject sensitivity, the timing of the post, and the habitat shots they include, to decide which ‘Level of Information Release’ might be considered most appropriate. We go through this stuff every year… with old-timers getting angry, newbies getting ‘flamed’ and some people just getting fed-up and leaving.
We don’t need any of those things, and hopefully, this ‘Level-headed Approach’ to releasing locality information online, will decrease those things. Happy Herping…Jim Bass.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 22nd, 2011, 5:38 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:38 pm
Posts: 1500
Location: Los Angeles
Jim, as I said before when you originally posted this (on the NAFHA main forum?), I think your analysis of the problem and proposed solutions are excellent. We should definitely make this post a sticky AND also develop on its basis a more abbreviated set of guidelines that can be read more quickly. I will be happy to give that a shot at some point, as you suggested. Not sure when I will get to it, though.

In the meantime, I hope we can get this post made into a sticky. Kent?

Robert


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 22nd, 2011, 8:22 pm 
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Joined: June 14th, 2010, 7:30 pm
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Location: Santa Clara Co
I second that! lol
Nick


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 22nd, 2011, 11:17 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
Jim - Thank You for your time and effort :mrgreen: Much appreciated


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 10:35 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:37 am
Posts: 835
Location: Bakersfield CA
Why does everything have to be made so difficult? What's wrong with "don't post localities on the forum". Simply follow the rules as stated here on the nafha forums and BINGO, its done. Honestly I didn't make it past the first paragraph before I almost fell asleep. It should be simple. Do not share localities online. The end. But, people say whitewater. Okay if people can differentiate known localities like WW and _____________rd. In the ________mountains then we shouldn't post well known localities either. Lets keep it simple here people. We don't need a collegiate level paper written for every rule of nafha. Nothing against you Jim but this is getting annoying. And its the same two or three people that make everything more of an issue then what it is.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 11:11 am 
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Yep, good point Mike, there should be a simple/special article/post for simple/special people and another one for complicated/neurotic people ....just like short and long buses ;-)

Seriously, thanks Jim for the hard work in good spirit, but Mike does have a point, no one ever reads the crap anyway ...like me, if there's no pictures I'm gone. :idea: that's it, use pictures! Like you could have pictures of sensitive locales with like a red circle and bar over it. ...dang, wish I knew how to do that in Photoshop ...f*cking stupid ass over-complicated POS. ...which brings us back to Mike's point ....Keep It Simple Stupid (KISS).


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 11:37 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
Posts: 7016
Location: Hesperia, California.
I had planned to have pictures... some of the herps that were mentioned, good vs bad habitat shots.
As for the 'too complex' issue... well, it would be nice if everyone understood... 'don't post localities'... but the newcomer rarely understands why, and others folks are like WTF are you to tell me what to do. In both cases, they need an explanation of WHY not to post too specific information.
EVERY year this topic comes up and it usually degrades into 10+ pages of arguing and bickering... well, like I said in my conclusion,(for those who couldn't make it that far... :D )
My hope in writing this article is mostly that our newer members get a leg up on this often-contentious issue, and gain some understanding as to why some folks post quite differently than they might. My hope is that they, and perhaps even some of the more seasoned guys, consider the type of post, the subject sensitivity, the timing of the post, and the habitat shots they include, to decide which ‘Level of Information Release’ might be considered most appropriate. We go through this stuff every year… with old-timers getting angry, newbies getting ‘flamed’ and some people just getting fed-up and leaving.
We don’t need any of those things, and hopefully, this ‘Level-headed Approach’ to releasing locality information online, will decrease those things.


Believe me Mike, this was a pain to write, and a lot of work... but I did it 'trying to help out'. I hope this will get condensed down to a easy to read/follow 'sticky'... with perhaps a link to the full article for those who want more comprehensive answers. jim
Hows the herping up in Bakersfield this time of year... sure sucks where I live... 16033 mission st Hes.... oops... sorry... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 2:32 pm 
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Ill attempt to condense it for you.
do not post localities. Why you ask, because it mother effin says so in the rules. Why can't we fun around punching stupid people in the face? Well there is a law that says we can't, so I don't, but god knows I would love to.

In fact! Jim?! Could you write me a letter addressed to congress as to the benefits of running around punching stupid people in the face. Maybe we could get the assault law rewritten to allow such activities.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 2:54 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
As Jim stated: Said guidelines were posted "as per request". That would be I. Is there wiggle room for our own interpretive biases? Yes. Norcal is a separate beast altogether. We don't have much in-fighting, and we bicker far less. We know which species and locales(specific) should or should not be made public.
Jim was very selfless with his time by posting this. He posted these guidelines as a favor to a friend.
So please re-direct your angst toward me. Thank You


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 3:05 pm 
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Location: "Buy My Books"-land
Quote:
16033 mission st Hes.... oops... sorry


Ya know, I went to that address...and it was a massage parlor...


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 3:12 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
Hubbs - Do you know in which mountain range I would stand the best chance of finding a Diablo Mountain King? Thanks in advance :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 3:48 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Yeah Mike... it sucks that not everyone possesses your strong native common sense (myself included), or just won't follow rules, without knowing why...(again, myself included) My first post ever on FHF, I asked about, and described a very specific locality... down to a specific hillside... just not knowing any better. Got a PM 1 hr later from our then Ed Spec, SnakemasterMyke, saying 'too much, dude'.

I'm glad the site crashed and no one can read my 1st post... pretty embarrassing stuff. My goal was to keep other newbs from making the same mistakes I made.... cause that's what I do... I teach. Like my hero ( :roll: ) Hubbs... who writes books... :crazyeyes:
Dude... I don't slam you for doing what you do with your life. Merry Christmas Mike... enjoy those kidlets while they're small and innocent... it don't get no better than that.

As for writing a letter to Congress... sure... send me a check... I'm about done writing for free... :roll: :D jim

Hubbs... you need to 'curb yourself', which would (I believe) be the equivalent of painting a self-portrait.... yuk yuk... :D jim


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 3:58 pm 
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Mr. El Garia: I would suggest the "Diablo" Mtn range... ;) since that's the ONLY one they are found in, you moron... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 4:20 pm 
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I'm not angry at anyone I'm just stating my opinion. The problem with your levels of privacy per species is flawed. Let say some jackhole accidently stumbles across your favorite crote den in august and finds one crote. He post a picture of his not so important find with a low level of local privacy and says. Hi I found this rattlesnake. Is this hypo or do all the rattlesnakes from the rockpile by tartersauce creek look like this. So then someone else that wants to collect this rattlesnakes goes to tartersauce creek in the spring and finds 20 rattlesnakes in the rock pile. He only wants to collect two so he drags all 20 out of their den and handpicks his favorite two. Then he tells 174 of his friends about the tartersauce creek rattlesnake den. Then when you go back their to see some of the animals you have been watching grow up from a distance and they are all gone. Rocks flipped and cap rock split off and not a single shaker to be found. So wouldnt it be easier to say, no mentioning locals. There will come a day when you realize why you shouldn't share. I have made mistakes and shared things with close friends of mine that I greatly regret. Its best to trust no one.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 4:44 pm 
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Locale is spelled with an "e" on the end...

Helpful Hubbs


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 5:10 pm 
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Brian Hubbs wrote:
Locale is spelled with an "e" on the end...

Helpful Hubbs

Hopefully you corrected the misspellings in your revised rattlesnake book


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 5:12 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Thx for the feedback Mike... it's the first constructive criticism I've recieved, and I appreciate it. And will take a good look at it, although off hand I would say that most of my suggestions throughout the article are in keeping with Nafha and FHF standards...recommending info release at the Co level, and at most... Major Features like Mt Ranges.
There are in fact only several instances where I say specific locality release MAY be ok, for low-sensitivity species only. I would think that your concern might be addressed with the other thing I suggested (several times)... that each chapter should draw up a sensitivity scale for the herps they have. Then we can all argue bout what goes where... :roll: :lol: :lol: Personally... I'm just starting to realize how popular and actually prone to collection crotes are... and would not rate most crotes 'low' on a scale... certainly none that den. Winders/Scutes... that are highly mobile and not likely to be found in the same place... maybe. Might be a fun thing for all of us to work on, over the holidays... :thumb: jim
Hey mike... where's the data for that night liz we found up in some pines trees somewhere in Ca? :lol: :lol: :lol: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 5:42 pm 
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@Waters-What misspellings?


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 5:50 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Brian Hubbs wrote:
Locale is spelled with an "e" on the end...

Helpful Hubbs

I think you mean localiteee...DUHHHH :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 6:26 pm 
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Location: Deadhorse/California
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 7:45 pm 
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hellihooks wrote:
Thx for the feedback Mike... it's the first constructive criticism I've recieved, and I appreciate it. And will take a good look at it, although off hand I would say that most of my suggestions throughout the article are in keeping with Nafha and FHF standards...recommending info release at the Co level, and at most... Major Features like Mt Ranges.
There are in fact only several instances where I say specific locality release MAY be ok, for low-sensitivity species only. I would think that your concern might be addressed with the other thing I suggested (several times)... that each chapter should draw up a sensitivity scale for the herps they have. Then we can all argue bout what goes where... :roll: :lol: :lol: Personally... I'm just starting to realize how popular and actually prone to collection crotes are... and would not rate most crotes 'low' on a scale... certainly none that den. Winders/Scutes... that are highly mobile and not likely to be found in the same place... maybe. Might be a fun thing for all of us to work on, over the holidays... :thumb: jim
Hey mike... where's the data for that night liz we found up in some pines trees somewhere in Ca? :lol: :lol: :lol: jim

OK so someone post they found a winder or a scute on ___________rd. No harm done. Except that rd is my favorite boa road or kingsnake rd and now there is 500 newbies cruising it for scutes. We can do this all day. It is in the best interest of the animals and the people that put forth a true effort in finding them to leave out localleties when posting on the forum that says don't post localities. Plain and simple.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 8:39 pm 
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PS
just because i share a different opinion then some of you doesnt mean i dont like you. Merry Christmas :)


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 8:49 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
Likewise Mike! Merry Christmas to you too :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 8:57 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co
Ok all, if locales are not supposed to be posted, then why are they. Do we need to wake up our moderators? Or is there too much of a grey area?
If they should not be posted then they should be pulled from recent posts of County info and guesses pulled as well.
M.J.FRANETOVICH: not sure what that pic has to do with the topic. But you do get a blue ribbon for randomness.
Feliz Navidad herpers!
Nick


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 9:20 pm 
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Wow, long day... JUST got it. Beating a dead horse! lol


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 23rd, 2011, 10:54 pm 
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herper79 wrote:
Wow, long day... JUST got it. Beating a dead horse! lol

:lol: You must have been napping with the moderators.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 5:28 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Mike,
Your preaching to the choir, man. READ the dang essay... it's all about getting people NOT to post locality info... :roll:
Lets be blunt... who usually posts too much info? newbs who don't know better... and Fieldnotes... :D In the essay I give researchers like Will a 'pass'... research on exactly where herps are is what they are all about, and the research they do helps both herpers and the herps. I also give them credit to keep the really sensitive stuff to pms.
If this were a wildlife photography site, then I could agree with you... no locality info necessary EVER (as it says in essay, regarding photo-posts)
But this ain't a photography site... it's a FIELD Herping site... which includes field reports. Sometimes a field is gonna get mentioned. Or... we talk about where something or the other MIGHT be.... We talk about what herps might be in what Co... so folks can go try to collect data. Already the locality info we release here is way less than other sites.... I spent a hr or so yesterday scouring maps to try to find the ONE spot LISTED on Ca herps, where a certain night lizard is found, trying to figure out how close to that spot you and I were, when I found a night lizard (still no clue).

Tell ya the truth Mike, I figured that a few locality 'hard-liners' like you would react somewhat negatively... in fact... you're kinda in the article, Mike...
"With some species, like Sandstone Night Lizards (X. gracilis) and Kern Plateau Slender Salamanders (B.robustus), I won’t be surprised if some take umbrage to me even mentioning them, in this article, which highlights the point that nearly anything anyone posts will have ‘fans’ out there who consider any release of information too much. "

I wrote that with you in mind, Mike. Read the article (if you haven't) carefully... you'll see that in almost every case I suggest keeping locality specificity to the Co level, or at the most, major features... like you mentioning finding Z's in the Tehatchapis... :roll: jim


Last edited by hellihooks on December 24th, 2011, 9:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 7:58 am 
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[quote="hellihooks"]Mike.. and Fieldnotes... :roll: In the essay I give researchers like Will a 'pass'...

Well. Helli, then I guess you and I qualify as being 'researchers' as well; since we all share very similar credentials... :lol: :lol: :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 8:22 am 
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Will has been all over the state ardently seeking every species and subspecies to verify localities and take photographs. He doesn't just herp at the roadside either but when the quest demands, he hikes for miles, sometimes in very challenging circumstances. He also does extensive online research of museum data, collections and historical documents. I believe his hard work, experience and knowledge, gleaned over the course of some 20 years, deserve a lot of respect, regardless of perceived practices related to locality disclosure.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 9:03 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
monklet wrote:
Will has been all over the state ardently seeking every species and subspecies to verify localities and take photographs. He doesn't just herp at the roadside either but when the quest demands, he hikes for miles, sometimes in very challenging circumstances. He also does extensive online research of museum data, collections and historical documents. I believe his hard work, experience and knowledge, gleaned over the course of some 20 years, deserve a lot of respect, regardless of perceived practices related to locality disclosure.

Exactly! Which is why in the essay I suggest that under 'Researcher Requests' some leeway regarding 'specific locality', range extensions, ect, is appropriate and acceptable. Like when he specifically asked me how close to the transverse ranges, have I ever found a shovelnose, towards confirming elevation data. I gave a pretty precise answer online. Why? cause Shovelnose are pretty widespread, common, and probably do not rate (IMO) 'high' on a sensitivity scale. For more 'sensitive' stuff, Will and I have communicated via pm, as is proper.

I was by no mean's trying to bash Will... just using him as our 'local' example of a researcher. That said... in general, researchers May occasionally release more 'specific info' than the average poster, which is also understandable, as 'preciseness' is a requirement of their work, which they work with on a daily basis.

As 'citizen scientists', grad students, consultants, or even lowly 'Field Assistants', like Klawn ( :D ) we should all carefully consider 'species sensitivity' when posting any locality info.

So... lets get this ball rolling.
Ca. Chelonians / Testudines ... all 'HIGH'... Level 1 release
Invasives (RES ect)--- Level 3

Snakes--- :?:
:D jim


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 9:54 am 
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I know several other herpers that have the same dedication as Will. They are comparable to serious expert birders. In fact, there are many listings for field assistants right now who have expert birding skills to help government agencies in regional and state bird counts. And they're compensating pretty well, too! (like $20.00/hr +travel expenses). I don't post those listings simply because they're irrelevant to the FHF.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 11:00 am 
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Locality requests should be done via private message. As far as me mentioning the tehachapis, well that's like saying I found something on tejon property as the location is on private property. And as the rules state, do nit share locality specifics, using this particular mountain range is by no means specific. I guess common sense has flown out the window here. I guess like my self, everyone will have to learn the hard way.


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 11:17 am 
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Hanna: That new avatar is really annoying...

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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 11:48 am 
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Oh sorry Brian. I forget you were prone to epileptic seizures.. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 12:12 pm 
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Happy Pancake Holidays!


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 24th, 2011, 1:11 pm 
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Happy Holidays, Brian!


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 7:53 am 
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Sorry Jim, should've have explicitly directed my comment to Ms. Klawnskale as it was her comment suggesting some equivalence with Will as a researcher that it felt required balance.

Quote:
I know several other herpers that have the same dedication as Will. They are comparable to serious expert birders. In fact, there are many listings for field assistants right now who have expert birding skills to help government agencies in regional and state bird counts. And they're compensating pretty well, too! (like $20.00/hr +travel expenses). I don't post those listings simply because they're irrelevant to the FHF.


I always got $25.00/hr ...but then, I'm special :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 8:56 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
monklet wrote:
Sorry Jim, should've have explicitly directed my comment to Ms. Klawnskale as it was her comment suggesting some equivalence with Will as a researcher that it felt required balance.

Quote:
I know several other herpers that have the same dedication as Will. They are comparable to serious expert birders. In fact, there are many listings for field assistants right now who have expert birding skills to help government agencies in regional and state bird counts. And they're compensating pretty well, too! (like $20.00/hr +travel expenses). I don't post those listings simply because they're irrelevant to the FHF.


I always got $25.00/hr ...but then, I'm special :lol:

HEY... ME TOO...got to wear a helmet all the time, ride the little bus....SWEET!... :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol:

But seriously folks... for those locality 'hard-liners' out there who insist that no specifics be posted EVER, consider then, when you post a pic of a herp that is only found in one small spot, such as a Black Toad, or Sandstone Night Lizard... everyone knows precisely where you were/went, with just a modicum of research.
I now plan on visiting some of these 'specific localities' cause of the pics I've seen posted... so, sure... mark them off your lifer list if you want... but for Christ Sake, don't ever post a pic of them, or even mention they exist... :roll: :D jim


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 9:41 am 
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The ideal post:

Went to the ______ ______ the other day with _____ _____ and saw 18 _____, 2 _____, 6 ______, and amazingly, 27 _______ _______s. They were in a ________. Here's the pics of habitat:

X

X

X

As you can see, the weather was perfect.
Thanks for looking...


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 10:22 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Brian Hubbs wrote:
The ideal post:

Went to the ______ ______ the other day with _____ _____ and saw 18 _____, 2 _____, 6 ______, and amazingly, 27 _______ _______s. They were in a ________. Here's the pics of habitat:

X

X

X

As you can see, the weather was perfect.
Thanks for looking...


:lol: :lol: :lol: "They were in a ________. " WOW... 53 herps in a line? THAT'S AMAAAAZING!!! :crazyeyes: :lol: :lol: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 4:32 pm 
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I never said they were herps...


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 5:02 pm 

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True Dat... plus... who's gonna believe you could find 53 herps in one day, much less in a line... ohhhh snap. :lol: :lol: jim


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 Post subject: Re: Locality Specificty Online
PostPosted: December 26th, 2011, 5:48 pm 
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Yeah, that would be impossible... :crazyeyes: :sleep:


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