Arizona trip of European alien

R. Troup · **Joined:** June 15th, 2011, 2:07 pm **Posts:** 21

Terry, first name is fine, or last name without the mister. Since we do displays in Santa Cruz and Cochise counties, we have all the natives except the four protected rattlesnakes, or a gila, as we have not applied for any special permits . My biggest weak spot is coming up with blindsnakes. They actually do well in captivity, eating like pigs, but they are great escape artists, and the few we've attained have ended up "flying the coop". We also have arthropods and some lizards like: alligators, collards, leopards, and geckos. Other lizards, and amphibians we usually try to round-up before an event, and release afterwards.
I try not to spend too much time on this infernal machine as it tends to suck you in. And I only visit this site sporadically - usually in season, to see what anyone else is finding. And, Tom is a member of Herp Nation, and gets the magazine, which I then read.

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 21st, 2012, 9:25 pm

That's all cool, but you still haven't told me your first name...LOL.

R. Troup · **Joined:** June 15th, 2011, 2:07 pm **Posts:** 21

Sorry, I guess it is hard to get out of "R". I thought it was there - I hadn't even noticed. Okay... drum roll, please. It's Robert. That should help.

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 21st, 2012, 10:03 pm

Thanks, Robert. Hope to see you on the forum more often now. You can keep us posted on some of your good finds. Anything special in 2011?

Talk more later. I'm checking out for today... :sleep:

Biker Dave · **Posted:** January 22nd, 2012, 8:00 am

Here is a copy of the reply I got from the guys at AZGF...

Quote:

Mr. Weber,

The A.R.S. Title 17 statute that you are referring to is A.R.S. 17-309A.14, which states that it is unlawful for an individual to take wildlife by unlawful method. A.R.S. 17-309A.14 is further defined by Arizona Game and Fish Commission Rule R12-4-304F.3, which states that an individual may use artificial light while taking reptiles if the light is not attached to or operated from a motor vehicle, motorized watercraft, watercraft under sail, or floating object towed by a motorized watercraft or watercraft under sail.

To clarify: Arizona Game and Fish Department generally allows an individual to utilize their headlights on the vehicle to take reptiles. With that said, if a Wildlife Manager (Game Ranger) observes an individual utilizing their headlights and maneuvering the vehicle in such a way to provide reasonable suspicion that the occupants of the vehicle are taking reptiles, the Game Ranger will likely conduct a compliance/license check. If an individual utilizes mounted spotlights or other lights on a vehicle or shines a light that is not fixed to the vehicle from the vehicle (i.e. flashlight or spotlight) to take reptiles or other wildlife, then that individual may be in violation of ARS and Commission Rule.

Remember the definition of take as defined in A.R.S. 17-101A.18: “Take” means pursuing, shooting, hunting, fishing, trapping, killing, capturing, snaring, or netting wildlife or the placing or using of any net or other device or trap in a manner that may result in the capturing or killing of wildlife.

For your reference, I have included the links to these Statutes/Rules below.

A.R.S. 17-309: http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument....17&DocType=ARS

R12-4-304F.3: http://www.azsos.gov/public_services/title_12/12-04.htm

Hopefully that clears up some of the confusion. If you have further questions, please let me know.

Thanks,

Kevin Bodmer
[email protected]]

Biker Dave · **Posted:** January 22nd, 2012, 8:02 am

Thanks for posting Robert, yes you have seen me at the Tucson Reptile Show.

Hope to meet up with you sometime out in the field....

Dave

Jeroen Speybroeck · **Posted:** January 23rd, 2012, 10:33 am

Well, here it is!
This is the time period we intend to spend in herping heaven: September 9th to 24th.
Thanks again, I'll get back to those who made helpful offers later.

Jeroen Speybroeck · **Posted:** January 23rd, 2012, 10:42 am

Something else...

Is observing a mountain lion just something coincidental, or is there a way to get a more likely shot at seeing one? How about bears & coati's in SE AZ? Other interesting local specialty mammals or birds?

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:

Something else...

Is observing a mountain lion just something coincidental, or is there a way to get a more likely shot at seeing one? How about bears & coati's in SE AZ? Other interesting local specialty mammals or birds?

You are probably more likely to encounter coati mundis and javelina than mountain lions in any of the Sky Island Ranges in Southeast Arizona. I would target that region since it has a high diversity of fauna. Bring your binoculars and guidebook for some excellent birding opportunities as well. Even rarer are reports of jaguars and jaguarundis. Be sure to visit the Southwestern Research Station in Portal for some great wildlife watching tips.

jonathan · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am **Posts:** 3505

klawnskale wrote:

Even rarer are reports of jaguars and jaguarundis.

Not to mention ocelot and serval.

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

Not to mention ocelot and serval.[/quote]

Serval? Then that would most likely be an escaped exotic pet. Did you mean ocelot and margay perhaps?

Fundad · **Posted:** January 23rd, 2012, 5:21 pm

Quote:

Something else...

Is observing a mountain lion just something coincidental, or is there a way to get a more likely shot at seeing one? How about bears & coati's in SE AZ? Other interesting local specialty mammals or birds?

If you get lucky you'll see one,but if your luck is like mine, it will likely be the tail end of the cat as he leaps just out of view as you round a corner on a deserted road, in the middle of the night.. :shock:

Doh!!

Fundad

jonathan · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am **Posts:** 3505

klawnskale wrote:

Quote:

Not to mention ocelot and serval.

Serval? Then that would most likely be an escaped exotic pet. Did you mean ocelot and margay perhaps?

Nope, I meant serval. For some reason escaped servals seem to be popping up regularly in Arizona. With the number of sightings I've read about over the last few years (clearly representing more than one individual, because at least 1 was captured and sightings continued), you're probably more likely to see a serval than a ocelot or jaguarundi.

When was the last time a margay was spotted in Arizona? I thought they were a thing of the distant past in the U.S.

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

Nope, I meant serval. For some reason escaped servals seem to be popping up regularly in Arizona. With the number of sightings I've read about over the last few years (clearly representing more than one individual, because at least 1 was captured and sightings continued), you're probably more likely to see a serval than a ocelot or jaguarundi.

When was the last time a margay was spotted in Arizona? I thought they were a thing of the distant past in the U.S.[/quote]

No more regularly than California, What? maybe one every couple of years. Please site the statistic. What a ridiculous way to save face for an honest mistake. Margay is on display at the Sonoran Desert Museum and are considered an inhabitant of the Sonoran Desert. Don't include servals with native wildlife sigthtings. Which is what this thread is on topic about.

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

klawnskale wrote:

Nope, I meant serval. For some reason escaped servals seem to be popping up regularly in Arizona. With the number of sightings I've read about over the last few years (clearly representing more than one individual, because at least 1 was captured and sightings continued), you're probably more likely to see a serval than a ocelot or jaguarundi.

When was the last time a margay was spotted in Arizona? I thought they were a thing of the distant past in the U.S.

No more regularly than California, What? maybe one every couple of years. Please site the statistic. What a ridiculous way to save face for an honest mistake. Margay is on display at the Sonoran Desert Museum and are considered an inhabitant of the Sonoran Desert. Don't include servals with native wildlife sigthtings. Which is what this thread is on topic about. Then you might as well include free range cattle. wild turkeys and feral dogs.

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

Sorry for the double post.

jonathan · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 7:39 am **Posts:** 3505

klawnskale wrote:

Quote:

Nope, I meant serval. For some reason escaped servals seem to be popping up regularly in Arizona. With the number of sightings I've read about over the last few years (clearly representing more than one individual, because at least 1 was captured and sightings continued), you're probably more likely to see a serval than a ocelot or jaguarundi.

When was the last time a margay was spotted in Arizona? I thought they were a thing of the distant past in the U.S.

No more regularly than California, What? maybe one every couple of years. Please site the statistic. What a ridiculous way to save face for an honest mistake. Margay is on display at the Sonoran Desert Museum and are considered an inhabitant of the Sonoran Desert. Don't include servals with native wildlife sigthtings. Which is what this thread is on topic about.

Klawnscale, I don't know why you try to jump on me on multiple threads. In case you're unaware, my dad is a zookeeper and I've been around cats and zoos my entire life. I've been digesting field books since I was 6 or 7 and could have recited every native cat ever spotted in the United States since I was 10 years old. And I know servals are an African species. I'm not going to mix them up with a margay.

I am not aware of any confirmed margay sightings in Arizona. There's a Texas sighting from 160 years ago, and a few unconfirmed sightings that could easily have been ocelots or servals. The fact that a margay is on display in an Arizona museum does not mean that's where it was found. If you can tell me the last confirmed margay sighting in Arizona, it'd be helpful. But I certainly was not talking about margays.

If someone is looking for small cats in Arizona, it's good to know that a serval is a possibility. That way they can be ready to distinguish between a serval and an ocelot and know what they really saw.

Here are just a few of the recent serval sightings:

January 2010: http://www.zmescience.com/other/3-legge ... na-desert/

September 2009: http://www.tucsonnewsnow.com/Global/sto ... S=11195599

December 2011: http://retrieverman.wordpress.com/2011/ ... n-arizona/

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

The issue here is not whether to be able to discern servals from ocelots. The original poster was interested in spotting native Sonoran Desert wildlife indigenous to Arizona. And I am sure Jeroen knows what a serval is. He was inquiring about native Arizona wildlife; not escaped exotic pets. But you trying to impress me with your background knowledge of spotted cats has nothing to do with his inquiry. Don't skirt the issue: the topic of discussion in this thread was native wild animals indigenous to Arizona; NOT escaped servals, caracals, Savannah cats, jungle cats, Eurasian spotted cats or any of the other existing crapass hybrids people may own of these various species which may have escaped from their owners. They are not native Arizona wildlife. I mentioned margay because it is an inhabitant of the Sonoran Desert and native to the New World. I made no claim of any recent sightings of margays. That's your interpretation of what I posted. But I guess we should also still accept your 'discovery' of Italian Wall Lizards in Los Angeles as well.

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 23rd, 2012, 8:09 pm

Let's stop bickering. I don't want to have to pull all the posts, because there's some good info from both of you, so I'll let it go for now. Thank you, if that's ok with both of you, otherwise shoot me an email... :roll:

Jeroen, you're likely to see bears more often than mountain lions, sightings of which are rare, imo. You need to be careful when on foot, because both of these animals are dangerous. If you really want to see mtn lion, tie a rare steak to your back and walk some high montane canyons at night (joking..heheh!)

I see lots of mammals in the Sky Islands, like javelina, coatis, foxes, 4 sps. of skunks, etc. Birding is great in my area. The Santa Ritas and Chiricahuas are two of the best birding spots in AZ. I do a little birding on the side and will help with that. Our property is pretty good for that too. Just saw a Harris hawk, rufuous-winged sparrow, and Bewick's wren the last two days....in the yard.

Terry :beer:

Jeroen Speybroeck · **Posted:** January 24th, 2012, 3:10 am

ratsnakehaven wrote:

If you really want to see mtn lion, tie a rare steak to your back and walk some high montane canyons at night (joking..heheh!)

Hmmm... Might feel some claws in my back, but seeing ... ? :crazyeyes:

Thanks for the replies. I seem to always end up on sites explaining how to "control" mammal numbers.

(( a little bit from 2 of my friends for the AZ trip...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9870 ))

Norman D · **Posted:** January 24th, 2012, 8:24 am

Jeroen

Some people have herps AZ and never seen a bear. I saw 5 bears last year, but never seen a mountain lion. September is a good chance to see a great variety of animals. The weather starts to cool down and animals are trying to fatten up for the winter.

Hope you have fun!

Norman

rosy-man · **Posted:** January 24th, 2012, 8:34 am

i would stick with early sept but i understand the price of tickets the monsoon season usually starts to peter out by sept but as others have said pray for rain and know cold snaps.

WW** · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 5:32 am **Posts:** 240

The main reason for the high price of tickets during the monsoon this year is the 2012 Olympics in London.... it is making one hell of a difference, as I am finding out during my costing out of attending the Woorld Congress in Vancouver....

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 25th, 2012, 8:33 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:

ratsnakehaven wrote:

If you really want to see mtn lion, tie a rare steak to your back and walk some high montane canyons at night (joking..heheh!)

Hmmm... Might feel some claws in my back, but seeing ... ? :crazyeyes:

Thanks for the replies. I seem to always end up on sites explaining how to "control" mammal numbers.

(( a little bit from 2 of my friends for the AZ trip...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9870 ))

I don't care for lions or bears. I try to stay away from ambush places when in their territory. The best way to see them is from a car, imho, LOL.

We have mammals. Of course I don't intentionally look for them, except in my yard. In the yard we have the normal mice, rats, bats, rabbits and javelina. I've also seen a few mule deer and bobcats and lots of coyotes. Thankfully, we also have lots of predators, like hawks and owls, to keep the populations down. I'll show you some packrat nests and damage from javelina, desert cottontails, and deer. We can also look at scat, if you're into that...heheh!

Terry

Jeroen Speybroeck · **Posted:** January 25th, 2012, 8:36 am

ratsnakehaven wrote:

We can also look at scat, if you're into that...heheh!

Mammals are actually more of a thing of my companions, but it's always cool to see some other stuff than just herps.

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 25th, 2012, 8:45 am

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:

Mammals are actually more of a thing of my companions, but it's always cool to see some other stuff than just herps.

That's one of the great things about AZ. When the herping isn't going so well, which it doesn't lots of times, at least there are a multitude of other animals to look at. Many times I've cruised a mountain road in the evening and come home to tell my wife that I didn't see any snakes, but did see deer, fox, skunks, and other things. Lots of invertebrates too. My favorite thing when diurnal herping is to look at birds when the herping is slow. Lots of cool birds and lifers to be had. BTW, binoculars are valuable to have on these trips, but I have extras if you don't have them along.

Biker Dave · **Posted:** January 27th, 2012, 6:26 pm

Quote:

ratsnakehaven wrote:
We can also look at scat, if you're into that...heheh!

Mammals are actually more of a thing of my companions, but it's always cool to see some other stuff than just herps.

Scat? Really? Uhhhhhh..... I think I'll stick to the herps.....especially the herp scat!

:thumb:

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 28th, 2012, 11:30 am

Well, if you're not into herp scat, you don't know what you're missing. This summer past I found tortoise scat for the first time. Actually I rescued a tortoise from the interstate and he dropped a load in my presence. I find lizard scat in the yard all the time. It's amazing what a desert spiny can accomplish along those lines. Often what a herp leaves behind can give clues as to what it's doing or where it's hiding. Think about shed skins and tortoise burrows too.

Cheers.... :lol:

klawnskale · **Joined:** June 7th, 2010, 6:09 pm **Posts:** 1211

Terry: I don't know if you're aware of this or not, it can be a tenuous situation when you pick up a tortoise. Legally, only authorized permitted people should be doing this, however, it is a difficult law to adhere to when you see a tortoise's life imperiled by being on the road. If the tortoise you picked up eliminated alot of water along with the feces, it had probably lost the entire water storage in its body that's supposed to last until it has the opportunity to drink again. This could be a long time. A tortoise should be picked up slowly with caution and low to the ground. Also release the tortoise in the direction it was walking originally, otherwise it will do an about face and go back onto the road again to go in the direction it originally intended. Frightening with quick, sudden actions causes it to void its entire water supply as a futile defense mechanism. It is possible for a tortoise to die from dehydration after voiding its water supply. Just bear this in mind the next time you decide to remove one from the road.

ratsnakehaven · **Posted:** January 30th, 2012, 11:15 am

K-s, you're right. I probably should have worded my post differently, so as not to alarm people. Technically, it's against the law to move, touch, or alarm a protected species in any way. However, it's very difficult to allow an animal to be killed simply because it's against the law to help it. The animal is supposed to be protected, not killed or allowed to be killed. Anyway, it actually was a friend of mine in another car that removed it from harms way. By the time I looked at it, it was already in the area we were to release it in. I managed to give it a pan of water to soak in for awhile before releasing it. You are absolutely right about the fact that voiding its water can harm it. That can happen with desert box turtles too. It's good to be aware of all these things.

Gotta run. Busy afternoon.

Cheers....TC

Arizona trip of European alien

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