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 Post subject: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 8th, 2012, 2:28 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Holy crap is there a lot of bad info in here!

Of course... I know... it was based on the info known at the time (1950's) and knowledge of rattlesnakes has increased tremendously (thank god).

The bigget mind tweaker while I am reading this thing is the interchangeability (is that a word) between 'venomous' and 'poisonous'. AAAAaaaaaaarrrrgghh!!

Anyone else feel this way?

I do have to admit the historical perspectives are interesting... like in "1645 so and so believed X" about rattlesnakes. Some really funny stuff.

I just had to say it ........

Dave Weber


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 8th, 2012, 4:26 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:36 am
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Location: Sunny Myrtle Beach
Klauber did a lot of work on and provided a wealth of information about rattlesnakes. If there is something in those volumes that you take exception to, have at it.

As I noticed last night, in Schmidt & Davis' "Field Book of Snakes" (published in 1941), Klauber was credited with developing road cruising as a collecting technique.

I'm sure someone else would have figured it out sooner or later.

If you are looking for antivenin, you might need to contact your local poison control center.

"In 2006, AZA, in collaboration with the American Association of Poison Control Centers, developed an online Antivenom Index that is currently managed, updated, and hosted by the University of Arizona College of Pharmacy. The Antivenom Index is available only to representatives from AZA-accredited institutions and poison control centers. "


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 6:16 am 
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What's neat about this post is a beautiful example of the disrespect the newer generation has in general. It's a shame because so much information and technique is going to be lost because they know more and better than anyone before them.

I know we've reached a new low when Lawrence Klauber gets slagged of for the information he provided. I'll just chalk it up to ignorance... or... trolling.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 7:28 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
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Location: Illinois
Ernie, what's neat is that some old coot's that think they're better than younger guys; read as has beens that don't respect the younger guys. I'm 36, and every year for many years I read "Snakes and Snake Hunting" in the winter. It was originally published in '57. I have nearly all of Ditmars works. I have Klauber both volumes and read then well over a decade ago. I give a lot of respect to the guys before me who deserve it. I was in awe of Henry Fitch when I met him, and the late Joe Collins who I dearly respected as a friend and mentor. So my message is to keep your blanket statements that are full of ignorance to yourself, lest you sound more foolish than usual.

Justin Michels


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 7:34 am 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
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Slow day Justin?

justinm wrote:
Ernie, what's neat is that some old coot's that think they're better than younger guys; read as has beens that don't respect the younger guys. I'm 36, and every year for many years I read "Snakes and Snake Hunting" in the winter. It was originally published in '57. I have nearly all of Ditmars works. I have Klauber both volumes and read then well over a decade ago. I give a lot of respect to the guys before me who deserve it. I was in awe of Henry Fitch when I met him, and the late Joe Collins who I dearly respected as a friend and mentor. So my message is to keep your blanket statements that are full of ignorance to yourself, lest you sound more foolish than usual.

Justin Michels


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 11:50 am 

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm
Posts: 727
You have to recognize the older literature for what it is, old and outdated. Its a mix of incredibly insightful work and somewhat antiquated terminology and paradigms. The whole poisonous versus venomous thing doesn't bother me much but really seems to annoy some.

Do you have the two volume set or the abridged version? The abridged version isn't very good IMO. But the two volume set... I still regularly pull off the shelf.

Its an incredible work and will never be duplicated. Its hard to imagine how someone put together something so through, before computers were in regular use.

I kind of find EJ's position confusing. No one is disparaging Klauber. As a scientist, he would have welcomed criticism and would have been appalled if folks were still using a fifty year old reference as their sole source of information.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 12:18 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
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Location: Illinois
Brian,

I have both the abridged and the huge two volume set. I have highlighted significant parts of the two volume set to reference later on. Some things are as you said are invaluable. I do remember over a decade ago having trouble understanding today's taxonomy with what Klauber had in his book. But then taxonomy is too fluid for a 50 year old set. It's an epic work, and I couldn't be prouder to have it.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 1:39 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
I am reading the abridged version. I got a gift card for Christmas to Barnes and Noble and had to use it for something. I figured I havent read any of Klauber's work at that time. I have Kaufeld's "Snakes nad Snake Hunting" and some other (non-pet trade) texts as well.

I won't waste time addressing EJ. He's not worth the bother.

For those with short attention spans here is a quote from my OP..

Quote:
Of course... I know... it was based on the info known at the time (1950's) and knowledge of rattlesnakes has increased tremendously (thank god).


As you can see, I am aware it is an older work. And anyone who knows me can vouch that I am not a "Know It All."

I just wanted to know what others thought about the book, and its inherent flaws as compared to today's information. And there is some info in this book that is still valid. one just has to be careful picking through it.

Jeez!

Dave Weber
President
AZ Chapter


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 2:00 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
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...I'll leave it at that... it's not worth it. I'll just have to accept that I'm not of some members caliber.

Needless to say the original post and some that followed struck me as quite arrogant.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 2:16 pm 

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 8:49 pm
Posts: 727
I remember how disapointed I was when I got the abridged version when I was in high school. I couldn't understand what he big deal was about Klauber. The abridged version definitely doesn't capture the genius of Klauber.

The two version set is well worth the money, even though its over 100 bucks.

My two volume set is highlighted and full of post it notes and tabs. Some of the correspondent reports are classic.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 9th, 2012, 7:12 pm 
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-EJ wrote:
...I'll leave it at that... it's not worth it. I'll just have to accept that I'm not of some members caliber.

Needless to say the original post and some that followed struck me as quite arrogant.


It's funny that you wrote that I'm assuming in regard to something I said. I only wrote what I did after this arrogant post was first written. Said the pot talking to the kettle.

-EJ wrote:
What's neat about this post is a beautiful example of the disrespect the newer generation has in general. It's a shame because so much information and technique is going to be lost because they know more and better than anyone before them.


EJ,

You should reread some of your trolling here. You can't be on both sides of the discussion at the same time. The way to avoid this is to just stop constantly reminiscing about how good the old times were and how terrible the herpers today are, and live in the present or just fade away like the amazing good times did.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 10th, 2012, 4:57 am 
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Joined: June 29th, 2011, 12:56 am
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Location: Belgium
-EJ wrote:
Needless to say


You seem to be rather good at saying things that are needless to say.

Why the weighty interpretation of the OP? I would imagine/hope most people reading Dave's post would take it as nothing more than sharing a personal, rather trivial thought, without drawing ponderous conclusions like you did. At least to me, it didn't come through as if he was bashing Klauber all together, but just wanted to start to hear about other people's feelings towards the book.

Pffff...


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 10th, 2012, 4:57 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
Posts: 1078
Considering you asked...

The OPs post fell on the heels of another situation I encountered in a different circle... I was kinda doing the same as the OP and venting an opinion on a situation that presented itself.

Jeroen Speybroeck wrote:
-EJ wrote:
Needless to say


You seem to be rather good at saying things that are needless to say.

Why the weighty interpretation of the OP? I would imagine/hope most people reading Dave's post would take it as nothing more than sharing a personal, rather trivial thought, without drawing ponderous conclusions like you did. At least to me, it didn't come through as if he was bashing Klauber all together, but just wanted to start to hear about other people's feelings towards the book.

Pffff...


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 10th, 2012, 5:27 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:05 am
Posts: 1027
Location: Albuquerque
Here's some klauberi eye candy

Image

And a cute little klauberi to end it out:
Image

Josh


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 10th, 2012, 5:47 pm 
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Joined: November 4th, 2010, 7:10 am
Posts: 451
Location: Sonoran Desert
Dave
You should change the title to "Klauber's Rattlesnakes: The Abridged version of the book"

There is a tremendous difference in the two. The two book edition should be read by every crote enthusiast.

Over 1000 pages on rattlesnakes?! It doesn't have many photos, but the information is priceless.

Get rid of your abridged version, and get the two volume set.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 1:29 pm 
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Joined: June 19th, 2010, 6:42 pm
Posts: 848
Location: New Yawk
Don wrote:
Schmidt & Davis' "Field Book of Snakes"


I LOVE that book.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 2:16 pm 
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Norman

I'll keep the abridged version as a "historical" document and when the opportunity arises I'll pick up the double set.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 2:26 pm 
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Joined: February 25th, 2011, 2:52 pm
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Location: Indianapolis
Pretty awesome book especially when you consider Klauber was a hobbyist.
Here's my first edition of his book.
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 3:23 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
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Killing more time are ya...?

justinm wrote:
-EJ wrote:
...I'll leave it at that... it's not worth it. I'll just have to accept that I'm not of some members caliber.

Needless to say the original post and some that followed struck me as quite arrogant.


It's funny that you wrote that I'm assuming in regard to something I said. I only wrote what I did after this arrogant post was first written. Said the pot talking to the kettle.

-EJ wrote:
What's neat about this post is a beautiful example of the disrespect the newer generation has in general. It's a shame because so much information and technique is going to be lost because they know more and better than anyone before them.


EJ,

You should reread some of your trolling here. You can't be on both sides of the discussion at the same time. The way to avoid this is to just stop constantly reminiscing about how good the old times were and how terrible the herpers today are, and live in the present or just fade away like the amazing good times did.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 3:26 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
Posts: 1078
The historical value of that book is fantastic. Very nice find.
Can I ask what you paid for it and how long ago?

dwarfboakeeper wrote:
Pretty awesome book especially when you consider Klauber was a hobbyist.
Here's my first edition of his book.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 3:43 pm 
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Joined: February 25th, 2011, 2:52 pm
Posts: 35
Location: Indianapolis
I have had this for several years. Somebody put it on ebay with an opening bid of $99 or buy it now for $150. The auction counter showed one view of the auction. I hit the buy it now button without hesitation because at the time first editions unsigned were going for $300. I bet the seller was ticked that he put a bin price on that book since it was sold to the first person who saw it.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 3:52 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Thee is a set on ebay right now from Australia...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rattlesnakes-their-habits-life-histories-Klauber-/300486162525?pt=AU_Non_Fiction_Books_2&hash=item45f65ef85d#ht_711wt_698

$320 bucks and NOT the 1st edition.

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 4:02 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
Posts: 1078
...and you got both volumes!!!!!!!! Holy crap did you score. Add to that the condition looks fantastic.

I once picked up a book on Bats by Luther Little (a leading bat researcher) It was a gift to him from Charles (Chuck) Bogart. The notation was from Luther Little but it's still cool... 25 bucks was the cost but it is in good condition at best.

I paid $100 for my second edition of the Klauber work. Box set... revised... unsigned... very good condition.

Again... congratulations on a fantastic score.

Did the seller note that it was owned by Slevin and sighned by Klauber?

dwarfboakeeper wrote:
I have had this for several years. Somebody put it on ebay with an opening bid of $99 or buy it now for $150. The auction counter showed one view of the auction. I hit the buy it now button without hesitation because at the time first editions unsigned were going for $300. I bet the seller was ticked that he put a bin price on that book since it was sold to the first person who saw it.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 4:31 pm 
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Joined: February 25th, 2011, 2:52 pm
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Location: Indianapolis
Oh yeah, he had lots of pictures. Just didn't have a clue what he had.
I also have the '97 copy of this volume with dust jackets. I would love to find dust jackets for my first edition but I really don't need to spend the money.

Nice find on the bat book. I bet you were tripping when you saw the inscription.

I like to collect signatures of authors. I think I have about 50 books which have been signed.
Too bad so many of the authors are no longer around.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: February 11th, 2012, 5:28 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 11:17 am
Posts: 1078
I should have so many more books signed than I have. Attending the IHS for the last 20 years provided some really good opportunities except that instead of getting books signed by the authors I spent the time with them hanging out at the bar.

I don't think the first edition had a dust jacket. I know the second edition didn't.

I was stoked over the bat book. I found it in the same book shop as a really cool paper that was the initial discription of the Woofen Poof(Eo├Ârnis Pterovelox Gobiensis). I have since lost the paper but found that it is being reprinted. This paper has a fantastic history which was given to me by one of the authors.

I do like my litterature collecting.

Thanks for the exchange. It was fun. (btw... I'm jealous of your score)

dwarfboakeeper wrote:
Oh yeah, he had lots of pictures. Just didn't have a clue what he had.
I also have the '97 copy of this volume with dust jackets. I would love to find dust jackets for my first edition but I really don't need to spend the money.

Nice find on the bat book. I bet you were tripping when you saw the inscription.

I like to collect signatures of authors. I think I have about 50 books which have been signed.
Too bad so many of the authors are no longer around.


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 9th, 2012, 5:57 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:54 pm
Posts: 538
Location: Deadhorse/California
Klauber' simply laid the foundation for today's herpetologist both professional and private. He is considered a legend and thought by some to be the greatest herpetologist that ever lived (in accordance with his time ofcourse) however I don't think Dave was putting him down!! I to feel that a lot of the old klauber research is useless today! Because of more advanced scientific research methods and development 'that's what we do people' we evolve and we will continue to do so, just like what we think we know today will be old information tomorrow!!! For one to think we have reached a plateau in the life science and natural history of rattlesnakes!! 'would be foolish.


Laurence M. Klauber, Mr. Rattlesnake, Was a great man and I have often wondered how great he would be today, given the technology we have!!! Bottom line his books are old and out of date, I to Owen a copy of the first edition's as well as several others by him, as more of a novelty than a refrance.

Mel :beer:


Last edited by M.J.FRANETOVICH on March 10th, 2012, 4:38 am, edited 3 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 9th, 2012, 7:10 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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:beer: :beer: :beer: spellcheck :beer: :beer: :beer:


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 9th, 2012, 7:12 pm 
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Thanks for the backup Mel! You are correct I was not really dissing Klauber, but pointing out how much things have changed over the years...

Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 9th, 2012, 8:36 pm 

Joined: August 26th, 2010, 9:56 am
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What will things look like in 2072 as (some of us think) we know everything now. Art


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 9th, 2012, 10:45 pm 
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Location: Deadhorse/California
Biker Dave wrote:
:beer: :beer: :beer: spellcheck :beer: :beer: :beer:



:lol: :lol: :lol: thank you, some times I type to fast for my own good :lol: :lol: :lol:


And ya' it was pretty clear you where not putting him down!! I'm not sure why some people feel its necessary to attack someone wethout looking at there point of view first, I'm guessing to many paint chips :beer:



And Art I'm not to sure ill be 103 years old, I'll probly be to worried about how good the Viagra is and leave the herpetology to the young men and women who can get out in the field :lol:

Mel


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 10th, 2012, 5:33 pm 
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Joined: June 10th, 2010, 6:56 pm
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Location: Litchfield Park, AZ
Mel

Go with Cialis, it last longer than Viagra... the nasty headaches are the same though!


Dave


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 Post subject: Re: Klauber's Rattlesnakes Book
PostPosted: March 11th, 2012, 1:57 am 
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Location: Deadhorse/California
:lol: :lol: :lol:


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