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 Post subject: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 24th, 2012, 8:53 pm 
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Joined: February 21st, 2011, 3:37 pm
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Location: Somewhere Between Vegas and LA, CA
Hey Everyone!

I am up in Humboldt County visiting my school campus for the weekend and decided to go look around the area for some lifers and I got just that! I found a number of species (Will have a larger post later) but this one definitely stood out. I found an old peacoat down by a marsh, flipped it and found this guy!

Image

Image

Image

The range on californiaherps shows that it is a Shasta Alligator Lizard (Elgaria coerulea shastensis) it appears to be patternless and the only other example I could find of this is in San Francisco Alligator Lizards (Elgaria coerulea coerulea).

Just thought I would share!

Any thoughts? Comments?

-Lucas :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 24th, 2012, 9:46 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
Lucas,

Cool find and excellent shots :thumb: I've found a number of Shastas as well as San Franciscos that I considered to be patternless, but not to the degree of your specimen. The Shastas I would find in Oregon never had as much of a visible pattern as the San Franciscos I would find in the Bay Area. I've noticed extreme variability in both color and pattern in the SF ssp. in every locale I've visited.

Thanks for sharing,

El Garia


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 6:57 am 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
I found a patternless SF garter in Santa Cruz, but not that nice/light. cool find Luke... jim


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 7:02 am 
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I found a similar looking juvenile Alligator Lizard when I was going to school at Humboldt in the dark ages. The variety of Ensatina behind the campus is impressive. Enjoy your time up there.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 7:10 am 
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
Cool find, Lucas. It's interesting to see that the shasta lizards do this, too. I often find patternless SF alligators down here in Santa Cruz:

Image
San Francisco Alligator Lizard, Elgaria coerulea coerulea by J. Maughn, on Flickr

My thoroughly unscientific thought was that this might help them in dense redwood settings, since they're awfully hard to see. Your's looks like it was in an area with more light, though.

JimM


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 25th, 2012, 9:32 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:40 pm
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Nice find and photos. Here's one that I found near Los Gatos last year:
Image

And here's one from 2008 off of Skyline:
Image

I like the variability of Alligator Lizards, although not patternless, I thought that this one from last year was pretty cool:
Image

Tim


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 26th, 2012, 4:27 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:05 pm
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Location: So Cal
San Diego County
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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 3:51 pm 
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Location: Somewhere Between Vegas and LA, CA
tspuckler wrote:
I like the variability of Alligator Lizards, although not patternless, I thought that this one from last year was pretty cool:
Image

Tim


Wow! That is one colorful lizard! I wonder if it could be hypo? Alligator Lizards have got to be one of my favorite lizards! :thumb:

Thanks for sharing your pics everyone! :thumb:

-Luke


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 4:04 pm 
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Location: Santa Cruz, CA
They can get very colorful, esp. the Southern species. Here are a couple from the Santa Cruz Mts.:
Image
California Alligator Lizard, Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata by J. Maughn, on Flickr
Image
California Alligator Lizard, Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata by J. Maughn, on Flickr

And, for good measure, a basically patternless California Alligator:
Image
California Alligator Lizard, Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata by J. Maughn, on Flickr

The variability is something with these lizards.
JimM


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 4:24 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
Wow, Jim!

That is some intense red on that Southern :shock: Very cool :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 5:55 pm 
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Nice gators everyone! For the 100th time, here is the patternless I found in Santa Clara County.
Nick
Image
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 6:41 pm 
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Lucas B. wrote:
tspuckler wrote:
I like the variability of Alligator Lizards, although not patternless, I thought that this one from last year was pretty cool:
Image

Tim


Wow! That is one colorful lizard! I wonder if it could be hypo?

I'd say no. It still has some black pigment, but it is a very nice looking individual and my favorite one here. The patternless are very cool as well. I remember a green patternless being posted here some years ago from Northerm CA. I know Jackson Shedd has a photo of a green one with just a little bit of pattern. And Jim has, what I believe is, a true hypo.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:25 pm 
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Cool, maybe I found a hypo! Err...what's a hypo? The last time I found a hypo was on a beach along the Delaware coast, but I'm pretty sure that's not what you mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:32 pm 
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hypomelanistic


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:38 pm 
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Ah, I see. If you don't mind me asking, why would that make the 'gator more red? This is an area of herping I've never really delved into before.

Thanks,
JimM


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:40 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
I love this thread! Better than... :D Now I know how Ross must feel every day :lol:

Nick- I may have spoken too soon when i named a favorite Northern Al. I don't know how i forgot about your 'amelanistic' one. But, that's like comparing pineapples and oranges... Tab and Fresca... Captain and Tennille... :crazyeyes:

Jamaughn- Can't you be serious? Just once? :D

edit - just saw your last post. What? ...no yucks? :D


Last edited by El Garia on March 28th, 2012, 9:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:45 pm 
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I am being serious, really.

JimM


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:55 pm 
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JAMAUGHN wrote:
Ah, I see. If you don't mind me asking, why would that make the 'gator more red? This is an area of herping I've never really delved into before.

Thanks,
JimM

All hypomelanism does is reduce the shade of the black or brown pigment. A reptile with an increased amount of red could be described as hypererythristic, but that's not a label I would be willing to stick on an Alligator lizard without test breeding to see if its an inheritable trait. I've found red pigment in Alligator lizards down here to pop up randomly in lots of areas along with other colors like yellow. I think its apart of their natural variation, rather than an inheritable trait. Just my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:56 pm 
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JAMAUGHN wrote:
I am being serious, really.

JimM


Ginger?, or MaryAnne? :?


herps


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:56 pm 
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El Garia wrote:
I love this thread! Better than... :D Now I know how Ross must feel every day :lol:

I wish it was everyday, but I will admit lately its been pretty good. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 8:58 pm 
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Ross,

Do you think that Nick's Northern Alligator is amelanistic?


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:04 pm 
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Thanks, Ross. I've seen the same thing here with alligator lizards, and just assumed it is a natural variation as well. I got intrigued when you mentioned that one being potentially hypo, though, mainly because I tend to get very lost whenever the subject turns to that sort of thing. I appreciate your taking the time to explain it.

JimM

El Garia:

Marianne's Ginger Ice Cream. It's a Santa Cruz tradition. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:07 pm 
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El Garia wrote:
Ross,

Do you think that Nick's Northern Alligator is amelanistic?

No, because it would have pink eyes if it was. It looks completely patternless, which is really cool. It would be really cool if he's found tons of Ally's in that same area for years and never seen one like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:08 pm 
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I thought the Santa Cruz tradition was Mary Jane :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:09 pm 
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That one was "Banana Slug" Phase. And yes, not a speck on it.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:12 pm 
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JAMAUGHN wrote:
Thanks, Ross. I've seen the same thing here with alligator lizards, and just assumed it is a natural variation as well. I got intrigued when you mentioned that one being potentially hypo, though, mainly because I tend to get very lost whenever the subject turns to that sort of thing. I appreciate your taking the time to explain it.

Sure thing! Maybe Jim will post his hypo, or at least it looks like a hypo to me, but since its not a Cal king, I can't be to sure. lol


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:14 pm 
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Location: Santa Clara Co. , CA
So, are true amelanistics albinos? or is that something different?


Last edited by El Garia on March 29th, 2012, 11:10 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:17 pm 
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Here's an ugly one I thought was interesting enough to photograph. Its the darkest Alligator lizard I've ever seen, including anyone's photos.

Image

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:19 pm 
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Wow!


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:20 pm 
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That's cool, Ross! :thumb: Never seen one that dark either. Not even a pic. Thanks for that!


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:23 pm 
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El Garia wrote:
So, are true amelanistics albinos? or is that something different?

btw - my ex-girlfriend was a hypo :D

Amelanistic and albino are technically supposed to be different (too lazy to go look up why lol), but albino has become an excepted term for amelanistic. A lot of the more knowledgeable breeders refuse to use the word albino to describe a reptile that's amelanistic. They prefer to use "amel" for short.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:26 pm 
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And what's ironic about that dark Alligator lizard is it was found in the same field in Long Beach that is famous for its hypermelanistic kingsnakes. Not sure if the lizard is hypermelanistic, but its pretty close if there were some.


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:33 pm 
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Ross Padilla wrote:
JAMAUGHN wrote:
Thanks, Ross. I've seen the same thing here with alligator lizards, and just assumed it is a natural variation as well. I got intrigued when you mentioned that one being potentially hypo, though, mainly because I tend to get very lost whenever the subject turns to that sort of thing. I appreciate your taking the time to explain it.

Sure thing! Maybe Jim will post his hypo, or at least it looks like a hypo to me, but since its not a Cal king, I can't be to sure. lol


I saw that thing :shock: Patternless hypo i'm guessing?


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:38 pm 
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Yeah, it could be. I was under the impression it was from So Cal, but if its from Northern CA, it could be normal, but who knows. It is a neat looking lizard.

Here's Jackson's green one. :shock: I'm pretty sure we don't have green ones down here.

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:45 pm 
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Image

Now you've seen a darker one Ross..



BTW Jacksons green one is SICK.. :thumb: :beer:

I have a patternless gater picture somewhere, I ll look for it.

Fundad


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:49 pm 
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:lol: Damn, that thing is really dark. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 27th, 2012, 9:53 pm 
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Fundad, That is DARK! Pretty cool :thumb:

I'm actually laughing out loud at that green one :lol: It looks so fake! :lol: I know it's real though. Never would have guessed that there could ever be a true GREEN Alligator Lizard! Speechless...


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 28th, 2012, 6:01 pm 
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That green Alligator Lizard is insane!!!!! :shock:

Ross: Any Idea or guesses as to why that individual turned out so oddly colored? Green doesn't even seem to show up naturally in these lizards pattern but then again blue hardly does in chondros but yet we have blue ones! Could it be the same kind of color mutation?


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 28th, 2012, 7:14 pm 
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Lucas B. wrote:
That green Alligator Lizard is insane!!!!! :shock:

Ross: Any Idea or guesses as to why that individual turned out so oddly colored? Green doesn't even seem to show up naturally in these lizards pattern but then again blue hardly does in chondros but yet we have blue ones! Could it be the same kind of color mutation?

That's a good question. Your guess is as good as mine, because this is a completely different species from what we have down here. I got to looking at Gary Nafis' website and found this picture posted there. Its a Sierra Alligator Lizard and there are others with blues and greens, so I guess it is normal for that species or subspecies. Here's some other Sierra Alligator Lizards from that site showing green.

http://californiaherps.com/lizards/page ... lmeri.html

Image

Image


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 28th, 2012, 9:06 pm 
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The ones I saw were more like this one from Santa Clara County, but way more green.
Nick
Image
Southern Alligator Lizard by Nick Esquivel, on Flickr


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 29th, 2012, 10:30 am 
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Very nice pictures. Here's a couple I've come across. Maybe not really odd, but slightly different.

Lake Elsinore. This one had dark sides compared to most I've seen in the area and it was pretty big.
Image

Grayback. I like these the best and see them frequently in a certain area.
Image
Image

Arizona phase Grayback.
Image


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 29th, 2012, 12:23 pm 
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Very nice! I remember that one from AZ. :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 29th, 2012, 6:07 pm 

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 7:12 am
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Location: Hesperia, California.
Here's a somewhat "hypo' from Hesperia
Image
But here's the one I think Ross means...
Image
I personally Like the red ones... :D
Image
This 'Greenish' SAL came from LA
Image
Image
And finally... the patternless SF I found in Santa Cruz...
Image
Dinner, bed, nother 12 hr day at work tomorrow, and the next day... if I wanna herp Sunday... :crazyeyes: :D jim


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 Post subject: Re: Odd Alligator Lizard...
PostPosted: March 29th, 2012, 10:35 pm 
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Yep, that's it, Jim. If I ever saw a hypo, that's it.

Image
Southern Alligator lizard by SnakeMan323, on Flickr

Image
Southern Alligator lizard by SnakeMan323, on Flickr


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