It is currently September 1st, 2014, 5:50 pm

All times are UTC - 8 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 6:55 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Colorado
I found a blue smooth green snake on weds evening and was wondering if this is uncommon or if they occur in this "phase" regularly? I read that in KS they sometimes have blue coloration and RobK found a blue one similar to this at the same spot a year or two ago. Frankly, I'm excited to see any smooth green snake, so either way I'm pleased. And yes i'm aware that they turn blue after death...

Image

Image

Image

Thanks for any feedback


Last edited by Joe Farah on June 15th, 2012, 7:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 7:12 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 am
Posts: 3279
Location: Illinois
If you haven't already eaten this how much are you selling it on KS classified for?


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 7:25 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Colorado
Anyone else?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 7:41 am 

Joined: November 4th, 2010, 2:43 pm
Posts: 529
holy smokes


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 8:17 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 8:43 am
Posts: 317
Location: East of san diego
freakin awesome love those colors


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 8:59 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:54 pm
Posts: 1146
Location: Northern coast of California
Looks hypoxanthic, happens from time to time. Normally the only time people find blue Smooth Greensnakes is when they've been dead on the pavement for a while, so that's a pretty cool find.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 9:14 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:31 pm
Posts: 290
Location: Florida, USA
kind of a pastel look. Really cool looking.
Thanks!

:Mark


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 9:19 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Colorado
Thanks, guys. Thanks Natalie... I was thinking "axanthic" or something along those lines


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 9:23 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:56 pm
Posts: 1177
Location: New River (Brooker), Florida
The only time I've seen them that color is after they die...must be a ghost.


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 10:14 am 

Joined: January 31st, 2012, 4:19 am
Posts: 53
Wow that's strikingly beautiful! Interesting how it still seems to have some yellow on the labials....

I wonder how much green snakes have the ability to color shift? Can they change shades (yellow/green/blue) based on mood, stress, age etc.? They're not popular captives so I wonder how much observation of these guys has occurred without flipping cover? I'm thinking along the lines of how GTP's will often turn blue temporarily while gravid (as another example of green snakes temporarily shifting color)....


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 12:15 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 5:30 pm
Posts: 40
I don't know how common they are, but there was a small herp breeder out of the southeast (Georgia maybe?) that had bred these axanthic Greens in captivity. I remember seeing them at the Columbia snake show about 4 or 5 years ago. Cool critters, great find.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 3:55 pm 

Joined: July 14th, 2011, 8:18 am
Posts: 402
Location: Denver, CO
great find! was this in northern colorado? obviously no specifics, i was just wondering if you could find them that easily up here...

-Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 4:02 pm 
User avatar

Joined: February 6th, 2012, 7:24 pm
Posts: 77
If it is anything like a blue chondro, it is probably a female.

Can you determine the sex?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 5:07 pm 
User avatar

Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm
Posts: 2231
Location: San Francisco, California
Splendid - what a jewel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 5:34 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2041
A gorgeous animal - and it goes so well with the blue frog recently reported here on the message board! :)

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 5:49 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 6th, 2011, 9:42 pm
Posts: 195
Location: central Florida
Joe Farah wrote:
Thanks, guys. Thanks Natalie... I was thinking "axanthic" or something along those lines


Awesome looking animal!

Well, if the belly has any light beige/butter yellow pigmentation to it at all, it would be termed "hypoxanthic" (reduced yellow) as Natalie stated. And if the entire belly is pure white with ZERO yellow pigmentation (xanthin), then it would be accurately termed "axanthic" like you stated. Either way it is a great looking snake... :beer:

I "think" I can just make out some very light buttery yellow on the ventral area, but it's hard to really see what's going on.


~Doug


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 6:28 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:21 am
Posts: 3259
Location: Iowa
Quote:
I read that in KS they sometimes have blue coloration


Where did you read that they have that coloring in Kansas, or does KS mean something else? Smooth green snakes are only known from Kansas from a handful of sightings. Most of the historic specimens can't be found. I think there was one existing verified specimen that was collected in 1928. Other than that, two were found during the KHS field trip in the fall of 2011, and neither was blue.


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 6:32 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:26 pm
Posts: 559
Location: Gainesville, FL
I think it's just a normal abnormality. I recall in Maine I saw a few smooth greens that were blueish, similar to this one. Also have seen some there were almost brown. I think it is slightly more rare. Love the smooth greens!

-Jake Scott


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 7:01 pm 
User avatar

Joined: May 5th, 2011, 2:15 pm
Posts: 302
Location: Virginia
At the Virginia Living Museum we have a blue rough green in our off-exhibit collection, also a beautiful animal. Opheodrys is such a cool genus.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 8:42 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Colorado
Thanks again for all the feedback guys. I didn't attempt to sex it, so I'm unsure about that.

Psyon, here's the link where I read that Kansas specimens are sometimes blue... Page 8 http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/projects/scp/as ... nsnake.pdf

Ian - it was southwest of Denver about 40 minutes into the mountains.

Thanks again and major props to my friend Brad who helped me find it. Couldn't have flipped that rock over without him.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 15th, 2012, 11:05 pm 

Joined: September 25th, 2010, 2:46 pm
Posts: 167
Location: Santa Cruz ca
Choice cyanamorph!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 6:51 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:21 am
Posts: 3259
Location: Iowa
"Dorsal coloration is variable: from bluish in Kansas (Smith 1956), to a light brown with an olive tint in southeastern Texas (Worthington 1973), to buff or bronze in northern Wisconsin (Vogt 1981)."

Smith, H.M. 1956. Handbook of amphibians and reptiles of Kansas. University of Kansas Museum of Natural History Miscellaneous Publication 9.

Does anyone have a copy of that book to see exactly what that guy is talking about? I am curious if he is basing the information animals that were found dead, and how many animals he observed.

Btw, I have seen a few pictures of smooth green snakes that had small patches of blue on them, but never an overall blue appearance.


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 6:58 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:21 am
Posts: 3259
Location: Iowa
Ok, so I found text of that Smith publication here:
http://www.archive.org/stream/miscellan ... v_djvu.txt

All it says is this:

"Dark greenish blue or blue above, without markings; ventral surface ivory yellow."

I can't tell if that is supposed to be a general description of smooth green snakes, or specifically about their appearance in Kansas. Given that almost every old specimen from Kansas are believed to be misidentified Rough Green Snakes, I don't see how the statement can apply to Kansas animals either way.

Sorry for somewhat hijacking your thread, but yeah, there are only a handful known from Kansas, the accounts of them being blue are probably wrong, and what you found was not only awesome, but unique :)


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 8:54 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 10th, 2010, 3:28 pm
Posts: 2041
psyon wrote:
"Dorsal coloration is variable: from bluish in Kansas (Smith 1956), to a light brown with an olive tint in southeastern Texas (Worthington 1973), to buff or bronze in northern Wisconsin (Vogt 1981)."

Smith, H.M. 1956. Handbook of amphibians and reptiles of Kansas. University of Kansas Museum of Natural History Miscellaneous Publication 9.

For what it's worth, during my years in northern WI I saw plenty of smooth green snakes, and all of them were a beautiful bright green.

Gerry


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 9:16 am 
User avatar

Joined: September 21st, 2010, 9:03 am
Posts: 479
Location: SE Virginia/SW Illinois
Blue living smooth green snake? Only explanation is that the zombie apocalypse is getting closer.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 10:45 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:19 am
Posts: 1938
Location: Redding, CA
Bullfrog wrote:
Wow that's strikingly beautiful! Interesting how it still seems to have some yellow on the labials....


So do axanthic corn snakeks, even the type B axanthic often do.


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 2:24 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 6th, 2011, 9:42 pm
Posts: 195
Location: central Florida
FunkyRes wrote:
Bullfrog wrote:
Wow that's strikingly beautiful! Interesting how it still seems to have some yellow on the labials....


So do axanthic corn snakeks, even the type B axanthic often do.


I believe you are thinking about anerythristic (no red pigment) type "A" corns and charcoal type "B" anerythrism that typically have yellow on their snouts and throats as they mature. Type B (charcoal) cornsnakes much more often typically have no yellow, but not always. Rich Zuchowski proved this years ago.

Derived from the Greek word "xanthos" (meaning yellow), the term "axanthic" with the prefix "a" attached literally means no yellow, and xanthic, or hyperxanthic means yellow or an over-abundance of yellow pigmentation (xanthin). By the same token, hypoxanthic means reduced yellow pigmentation. Carotenoid retention in the xanthophores can also play a huge roll in yellow pigmentation as certain snakes mature.


cheers, ~Doug


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 2:54 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:19 am
Posts: 1938
Location: Redding, CA
Yes. The type B "pine island" did not have yellow as a locality morph when Cathy introduced the line but as they were outcrossed, some did develop yellow on the throat.

Point being that there may, in some species, be more than one factor that results in visibly yellow pigment.


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 16th, 2012, 6:52 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 6th, 2011, 9:42 pm
Posts: 195
Location: central Florida
FunkyRes wrote:
Yes. The type B "pine island" did not have yellow as a locality morph when Cathy introduced the line but as they were outcrossed, some did develop yellow on the throat.

Point being that there may, in some species, be more than one factor that results in visibly yellow pigment.


Yes, that was certainly what started her later coined "charcoal" corns. I would have to agree that there are countless things nobody really understands about the complex dynamics of pigment cells and other things that can greatly affect what our eyes perceive.

Here is another scenario regarding blue and green reptiles and amphibians as well as the xanthophore layer:

In a typical green snake, light penetrates to the iridophores, which act like tiny mirrors to reflect and scatter mostly blue light back into the xanthophores above them. The xanthophores contain yellow pigments, and act as yellow filters so the light escaping to the skin surface appears green to our eyes. If a snake lacks the yellow xanthophores, blue light scatters back and the snake appears blue. Iridophores do not synthesize pigments, but reflect and refract color. They contain platelets that produce a scattering effect. This would be what is going on with certain very blue colored Green Tree Pythons too.



cheers, ~Doug


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 17th, 2012, 12:46 pm 
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:08 am
Posts: 554
Featured this image on the website. www.herpnation.com

Still working on the FHF image nomination set up. Keep em' coming! Will be implementing that soon! Stay tuned. Cool find, Joe!

scott


Top
 Profile WWW 
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 17th, 2012, 9:08 pm 
Whoa! :shock: Crazy looking. I've found a few up there that have that same coloring in blotches, but never the entire snake. Great find!


Top
  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 18th, 2012, 6:25 am 
User avatar

Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:54 pm
Posts: 259
Location: Colorado
Thanks again for all the theories and feedback guys.

Thanks Scott for featuring that image, although i feel there are many more that are much more deserving of that recognition.

Hi Rob :-)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 18th, 2012, 10:19 am 
User avatar

Joined: December 30th, 2010, 10:02 am
Posts: 307
Location: SoCal and Cape Cod
These photos are all over my Facebook wall right now! Congratulations, a normal one is awesome enough to find but this one blew my mind, quite a beautiful snake :D


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 19th, 2012, 2:51 pm 
User avatar

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:14 pm
Posts: 2651
Location: San Antonio, TX
JakeScott wrote:
I think it's just a normal abnormality.


Wow, that's really unreal. :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Is this blue-colored green snake a rarity or ...?
PostPosted: June 19th, 2012, 3:31 pm 
User avatar

Joined: March 22nd, 2012, 6:19 pm
Posts: 367
Location: The Dark Side of the Moon
Thats absolutely crazy! :thumb:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 35 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 8 hours


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], HerpMan ATL, Ruxs and 15 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to: