1. Read this: http://www.snakeconnections.com.au/content/tongs
2. Discuss!
(I have no opinion about this, as I mostly use my Gentle Giants as trekking poles anyway...and sometimes to pick arboreal snakes off out-of-reach branches)
Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Moderator: Scott Waters
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
- Posts: 3230
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:19 am
- Location: Kuching, Sarawak (Borneo)
- Contact:
- MaartenSFS
- Posts: 466
- Joined: February 6th, 2011, 9:09 pm
- Location: Guilin, Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, China
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Sidearm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I agree with what is said, but wanted to comment because of the "Satan's Sidearm". I will add, though, that Austin Stevens seems to use them quite well.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
- Posts: 3230
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:19 am
- Location: Kuching, Sarawak (Borneo)
- Contact:
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
True. And he seems to know a thing or to about herps (even if it doesn't show in his televised circus shows)
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
The more tools you have at your disposal, the better - providing you know how to use them. I've used everything from padded tweezers to padded tongs, pinning sticks and hooks for different situations. Personally, I'm not a fan of the pilstrom type tongs as they're very harsh, nor of people using them to grip the neck of a snake. Midwests are better. But I think people often get the impression that they are a substitute for good handling skills.
You can harm a snake with tongs, but you can also potentially harm one by holding it by the tip of the tail or using a hook that is too thin (like Bitis). Use them properly and they're a great tool.
You can harm a snake with tongs, but you can also potentially harm one by holding it by the tip of the tail or using a hook that is too thin (like Bitis). Use them properly and they're a great tool.
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I have trained several people to safely remove rattlesnakes from high use campgrounds/day use areas, and tongs seem to work best. They are imperfect, as fearful tong handlers tend to grip too firmly, risking damage to the snake. Like any other tool, if used competently, they can be effective. I prefer a hook myself, but I am not fearful like some of the folks I work with, and I don't get the snake all upset and thrashing around like many of them do. It was/is common to see imported snakes with damage, broken ribs etc., I presume from overzealous use of tongs or even worse, nooses. The wide spatulate tong jaws seem like a good idea, and I glued ensolite foam on some we used. Tongs must be used by trained people to avoid injury, but they are probably better than the common alternatives of nooses and shovels. I try to teach folks to tong heavy bodied snakes in the middle rather than behind the head which for some reason they tend to want to do. I have no experience with quick and agile elapids, I would need training before I would dare mess with them.
- Bryan Hamilton
- Posts: 1234
- Joined: June 10th, 2010, 9:49 pm
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
For Crotalids in talus, God's gift.
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I've had mine for two years and haven't had a chance to use them yet. I haven't gotten any hots while the tongs were with me. I did pluck a Nerodia sipedon pleuralis out of a lake with them once. It worked for that. Mostly it has served as a walking stick and a nice flipping stick.
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
"Tongs/hooks/what-have-you don't kill snakes. People kill snakes." Any tool has the potential to be misused.
Gerry
Gerry
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
So, haven't used them much lately, but I have the pilstrom type (an older midwest model)... it has no padding. I can't really afford to just buy a new one. Any way to properly retrofit them? Ideas?
- MHollanders
- Posts: 583
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 2:32 pm
- Location: Houston, TX
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
The article seems ridden of elitism and machoism. Or is that just me?
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Tongs are excellent tools that increase safety while handling of dangerous snakes. They are less useful in handling slender elapids than fat pit vipers, but the risk of injury to the snake with whitney/m1/gentle giant-styles is much lower than some people (particularly many Australians) think. You aren't going to squeeze a snake to death, no matter where you grip them, with these styles of tongs (Pilstroms are another story). The gaps in the mouth are simply too large. The risk of injury is if you grip the snake too close to the neck or grip it in a way that allows it to thrash and potentially break its own bones. Snakes should be gripped in the upper-middle quarter of the body, and if they thrash they should be lowered to the ground while maintaining a grip on them.
Tools should always be used in preference to hands if you hope to never be bitten. The only way to reasonably guarantee a bite cannot occur is by handling the snake at a distance from which it cannot bite you, and controlling their body in such a way that the distance of their head to your body does not change. Tongs often provide the best means to do that.
Tools should always be used in preference to hands if you hope to never be bitten. The only way to reasonably guarantee a bite cannot occur is by handling the snake at a distance from which it cannot bite you, and controlling their body in such a way that the distance of their head to your body does not change. Tongs often provide the best means to do that.
The attitudes described in the article are pretty much word for word from several Australian snake folks I've met so far. They usually (but not always) haven't been stated in a elite/macho manner, but rather as a statement of fact. Though I dispute the risk of injury to the snake, my own limited experience with tonging elapids is that it's difficult to hold them still with tongs. They simply slip through the tong, and if you try to grab them with tongs while they are moving (which they often are, quite rapidly), you are very likely to miss. It's similar to tonging water snakes off branches that you can't reach by hand. The seemingly elitist statement regarding use of tongs as indicative of inexperience I think is relatively realistic- my own experience is that I'm not quite comfortable with the idea of tailing these critters, and tongs, though they don't work that well and increase the likelihood that the snake escapes, at least provide that safety of distance I mention above, and I'll take my own safety over catching a snake any day. As a result, I've become a huge fan of in situ photography when it comes to elapids so toxic that one of them killed a powerline worker in Queensland just this week in what is thought to have been a matter of minutes. His body wasn't found for 3 hours so the time it took to kill him isn't known, but still, dying from snakebite in 3 hours isn't something you have to be concerned with in most vipers.The article seems ridden of elitism and machoism. Or is that just me?
- Mark Brown
- Posts: 567
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 2:15 am
- Location: Austin, TX
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I've had a pair for many years and I can't recall that I've ever used them. When working with hot stuff at home, they're a good backup in case things start getting out of hand, but I've been able to avoid that sort of drama. They never go in the field with me - I've never had the need to use them afield and they're just another thing to tote around, have to keep track of, and get in the way.
I've seen them used improperly, and it is usually the result of someone picking up a snake, which immediately reacts by thrashing, whereupon the handler responds by using way too much pressure to restrain the panicky snake.
I've seen them used improperly, and it is usually the result of someone picking up a snake, which immediately reacts by thrashing, whereupon the handler responds by using way too much pressure to restrain the panicky snake.
- ThamnElegans24
- Posts: 406
- Joined: November 23rd, 2010, 6:44 pm
- Location: Mesa, Arizona
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I guess I'll just have to stick with my noose
- Mark Brown
- Posts: 567
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 2:15 am
- Location: Austin, TX
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Forked stick still get the job done for me
- Viridovipera
- Posts: 339
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 7:40 pm
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Tongs are also great if you don't have two hooks and are dealing with a snake that's too short to tail. Not every snake stays on a hook. In fact I've met relatively few venomous snakes that do.
- Hans Breuer (twoton)
- Posts: 3230
- Joined: June 8th, 2010, 3:19 am
- Location: Kuching, Sarawak (Borneo)
- Contact:
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Surely you must have met more than your share of arboreal vipers? Those never want to get OFF the hook...Viridovipera wrote:Tongs are also great if you don't have two hooks and are dealing with a snake that's too short to tail. Not every snake stays on a hook. In fact I've met relatively few venomous snakes that do.
- MaartenSFS
- Posts: 466
- Joined: February 6th, 2011, 9:09 pm
- Location: Guilin, Guangxi Zhuang Autonomous Region, China
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Yes, although I don't mind his shows - especially during the harsh winter months.Hans Breuer (twoton) wrote:True. And he seems to know a thing or to about herps (even if it doesn't show in his televised circus shows)
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I ordered some prongs (tongs) to South Thailand because they are quite necessary for an novice (so to speak) when handling nasty hots such as the Malayan Pit-Viper, which is common as muck here, also as some people have already said Elapids are prone to sliding of a hook like it's nothing. However I agree that in come cases they are unnecessary which is why I, even though I have previously always worked with my hands, have decided to make myself a hook.
Cheers,
Rupert
Cheers,
Rupert
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Just curious: Other than removal from populated areas, or for measurements in scientific studies, what's the need to handle a species that's common as muck?Ruxs wrote:I ordered some prongs (tongs) to South Thailand because they are quite necessary for an novice (so to speak) when handling nasty hots such as the Malayan Pit-Viper, which is common as muck here…
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
Hard to believe but most snakes actually DON'T LIKE being grabbed-by your hand, a set of tongs, whatever. It immediately triggers some degree of either defensive/flight or flight behavior, at which point you trash any chance for observation of more natural behavior. By comparison a hook has a considerably different/lesser effect but also forces the snake to react in some way.
If one's goal is simply pulling a resistant animal out of it's microhabitat, yes I agree tongs are the best solution- way better than pinning, or noosing( both pretty ridiculous unless completely unavoidable somehow). I know tongs are way overused and the vast majority of the time what they're used for can be done with a hook.
If one's goal is simply pulling a resistant animal out of it's microhabitat, yes I agree tongs are the best solution- way better than pinning, or noosing( both pretty ridiculous unless completely unavoidable somehow). I know tongs are way overused and the vast majority of the time what they're used for can be done with a hook.
- muskiemagnet
- Posts: 1253
- Joined: June 11th, 2010, 8:43 am
- Location: kaukauna, wi
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
i'm thinking that if one hopes to never be bitten, one should just leave the snake alone.VanAR wrote:Tools should always be used in preference to hands if you hope to never be bitten. The only way to reasonably guarantee a bite cannot occur is by handling the snake at a distance from which it cannot bite you, and controlling their body in such a way that the distance of their head to your body does not change. Tongs often provide the best means to do that.
there are times when handling is needed. removing from human traffic(as mentioned) or for research purposes. as ugh pointed out, snakes are going to react to being grabbed. this in itself creates a myriad of potential outcomes depending on the individual snake. because of these potentials, the snake could be injured or killed as well as the captor being injured or killed. it sounds to me that this discussion is simply a rationalization. the "machoism" comment holds true at this point. the fact that it is being discussed as to handle hots with "less" potential to injury is a good thing, and i'm glad to hear it, but the fact that the potential exists should be an indicator to just leave them be. i know that this is slightly off topic, but i feel that it should be mentioned. it is evident that you all agree that tonging a snake could hurt the snake. well then, why would you tong it? to those of you discussing this for "professional" reasons, then disregard my comments. if some are tonging just because they can, well then, give my comments some thought.
-ben
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
If a guy is adept with a flute, charming a snake to cooperate is hands down, the way to go.
Tongs are good in some situations. Hooks are more fun, but sometimes frustrating.
Tongs are good in some situations. Hooks are more fun, but sometimes frustrating.
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I happen to agree with the article in Hans' link. I've handled (with hooks and tongs) rattlesnakes and I've handled (with hooks) Australian elapids and couldn't imagine using tongs with the latter.
Often when an elapid is encountered in the wild, it is either high-tailing it across a road or is just a glimpse of tail disappearing into the undergrowth. The chances of it sitting quietly coiled up, waiting to be caught, are slim. If it is moving away from you at speed, the best (and probably only) way to stop it is by grabbing the tail end with one hand, or using a hook to lift up a loop of its body and then, as it slides through the hook, grabbing the tail end with the other hand. Once the snake has been secured that way, the hook can be used to guide the sharp end of the snake so that it can't turn around and bite you. Whether you use a hook or tongs at that stage is academic, because it's your hand, not the tongs, keeping the snake from getting away and the tongs are only being used to control the sharp end of the snake. The prongs/jaws of the tongs don't even have to be closed. If we're talking about just using tongs alone to stop the snake from getting away (i.e. no hands holding the snake) and the snake isn't getting away by wriggling out of the tongs' grasp, the chances that you've broken some of its ribs are likely to be high.
Often when an elapid is encountered in the wild, it is either high-tailing it across a road or is just a glimpse of tail disappearing into the undergrowth. The chances of it sitting quietly coiled up, waiting to be caught, are slim. If it is moving away from you at speed, the best (and probably only) way to stop it is by grabbing the tail end with one hand, or using a hook to lift up a loop of its body and then, as it slides through the hook, grabbing the tail end with the other hand. Once the snake has been secured that way, the hook can be used to guide the sharp end of the snake so that it can't turn around and bite you. Whether you use a hook or tongs at that stage is academic, because it's your hand, not the tongs, keeping the snake from getting away and the tongs are only being used to control the sharp end of the snake. The prongs/jaws of the tongs don't even have to be closed. If we're talking about just using tongs alone to stop the snake from getting away (i.e. no hands holding the snake) and the snake isn't getting away by wriggling out of the tongs' grasp, the chances that you've broken some of its ribs are likely to be high.
- Kevin McRae
- Posts: 110
- Joined: June 7th, 2010, 11:28 pm
- Location: Manitoba, Canada
Re: Snake Tongs - Satan's Side Arm or God's Gift to Herpers?
I do not think tongs or hooks should be used for pleasure. If you just want to photograph/observe a venomous snake leave it be. If it goes down a burrow so be it, it's an excuse to keep searching for more. Most of the C. virdis I've found have been at entrances of mammal burrows and 50-75% of the snakes will enter the burrow. If you stay a safe distance from venomous snakes and do not handle them your chances of being bitten are dramatically decreased. Also, is it worth potentially injuring a snake just for a photo?
However, if you are trying to remove a snake off a roadway or from a camp ground where the snake may be harmed I don't see a problem using tongs/hooks. Or if you are doing research that requires hands on work with venomous snakes they may be acceptable under certain circumstances.
However, if you are trying to remove a snake off a roadway or from a camp ground where the snake may be harmed I don't see a problem using tongs/hooks. Or if you are doing research that requires hands on work with venomous snakes they may be acceptable under certain circumstances.