2011 zonata pairings (discussion about GIFTED hatchlings)

[Kelly Mc]

Actually it would be awesome to have dinner with you and Regal sometime

Our dinner conversation would be like none other !

Speaking of appliances I just got a vacuume sealer - I haven't taken it out of the box yet. Its for the animal food . im hoping it frees me up from all the zip lock bags, having to press out all the air, etc. to keep things nice.

I like taking care of this snake, he is very active. I let him "fail" a hunt occasionally, ie, don't feed him every time he forages. And he does have conventional seasonal ebbs and swells to his appetite, but when hes On he is robust.

Hes a big boy and has that hard body feel - hard as a brick! I don't want that to change and I think rock climbing and uvb has played a part.

[hellihooks]

In the 30 some crotes I maintain, for avoidance training (all rescues) a few won't eat... I've adapted a caulking gun and fill it with F/T rat pinks... and pump um in... works fine... did three snakes this am...

[Kelly Mc]

Ok so heres the thing, I don't really handle my snakes. Im not "against" it, that's just not something I find myself doing unless its necessary, and stretching him out measuring them isn't something I find necessary. but, since I have had my snake since day one, ive kept loose track, mostly since he has gotten to be an adult. So what ive done a couple times is, in an empty 40 gallon I had in the garage, is put a towel on the bottom and let him crawl along the wall and then put a bolt or something real quick where his head stops to mark it. The last time I did this, he straightened out pretty good and his head looked like it was only a couple inches from the end, which its a 36 in tank.

So I moved the tank inside because im moving one of my lizards in it and I thought I would do it again, only this time I put a tape measure under the glass. Well...

Ok so he isn't 34 inches. Hes more like 30, maybe even a little more, cause he had a few little bends.

I don't know why I feel weird about this..

[gbin]

Jim, is your avoidance training the same as the snake-breaking exercises I've run my dogs through in TX? Just out of curiosity, why do you feel you need so many snakes for it? That's a lot of mouths to feed, especially if a number of them won't eat voluntarily.

Kel, it's been a long time since I last heard word of it, but there used to be a free downloadable program around that people could use to measure the length of their snakes. All that was needed was to take a picture of a snake from above and include something of known length (such as a ruler) in the picture, plot some points on the picture using the program and then let it calculate the snake's length. Pretty slick!

Gerry

[hellihooks]

Jim, is your avoidance training the same as the snake-breaking exercises I've run my dogs through in TX? Just out of curiosity, why do you feel you need so many snakes for it? That's a lot of mouths to feed, especially if a number of them won't eat voluntarily.
Gerry

It's against Ca. Law to re-release captive herps... so we force feed the few that won't eat, rather than watch them starve. the # of crotes relates to years of rescues, and we prefer not 'over-using' the snakes (usage = Stress) so rotate their use. It's standard shock-collar rattlesnake avoidance training... MOSTLY for bird-hunting dogs, but with more and more folks building where crotes are found... more and more 'pet' dogs all the time.
We'll (hopefully) soon offer Skunk avoidance training as well... and I'm looking forward to keeping skunks.

[Kelly Mc]

concepts of More and Bigger are primal and interestingly reactive. Even if one doesn't think they ascribe to them, something will happen that will indeed make its value detectable.

It can be a surprise to suddenly see our monkey prints in the light.

[Kelly Mc]

My partner said I was cranky after I measured the snake.

[hellihooks]

My partner said I was cranky after I measured the snake.

Join the Club...

[Kelly Mc]

Heehee.. Pan of the Desert

[Scott Waters]

I've done baby food many times over the years for finicky (of various species) feeders. Worked great, no problems, began eating on their own after a few of these meals. The only negative I've found, and it did happen to me once, very early on, is overpumping. But that is true with anything you are using a pinky pump, or similar type of device on.....so be careful and don't over-stuff using this method!

scott

[BillMcGighan]

Just a side note since measuring was mentioned.

Here’s a modification to Kelly’s measurement technique, just for larger animals. I think I read this first in a Clifford Pope book.

Put the animal down quietly against a blank wall in a large empty room, an empty hallway, or a large room with all the furniture moved to the other side.

It works best if the floor is smooth like tile or linoleum, or like here, laminate flooring.





If things stay quiet, the animal will often straighten out and crawl along the wall right where the wall and floor come together.





You can place an object down the wall on the floor, like this copy of Ditmar's Reptiles of North America and when the snake reaches it, mark the spot where the tail is, then measure.





This takes patience and is not "dead-on" accurate, but it is less intrusive and stressing to the snake.
It works consistently with Boas and pythons, but with patience, can work with most other medium to large snakes.

[Kelly Mc]

Nice! Yes we did that at a place where I took care of boids, which I kind of tried to copy with my z . I like the Ditmars reference, so gentle and warm your sense of fun is, Bill.

You know I can't remember measuring any of my other guys. Weighing some yeah

Last night I gave Golden Boy an extra fuzzy LOL

[Kelly Mc]

Mine doesn't have any red on his head, but little goldy flecks and lines.

[Kelly Mc]

edit I shouldn't be trying to post at work!

[hellihooks]

For measuring large snakes I use a cartographers wheel... when/if I get to the point where the tail is too small, I measure the remaining tail and add it to the total on the wheel... and obtain accuracy down to 1/16 of an inch. Too Anal??? Oh well...guess that's just how I 'roll' yuk yuk

[Kelly Mc]

Pics of Golden Boy 2014

[Zach_Lim]

Beautiful zonata

[Kelly Mc]

Thanks Zach - I think so too!

[justinm]

You can place an object down the wall on the floor, like this copy of Ditmar's Reptiles of North America and when the snake reaches it, mark the spot where the tail is, then measure.

My Ditmar's of the same title is Faded to a Teal Green, on a Wooden binding.

[Kelly Mc]

Interesting observation - I unearthed G.Bs buried hollows and compartments to 'graft' into a new glass enclosure. I wanted to be as unobtrusive as possible because of the season. The hollows are a cork burl hollow about the size of a cereal bowl, a cork sleeve (ie an L shaped 'tube') and a slate box I made that was positioned in a vertical orientation. There was also numerous shale and sandstone flush on the floor.

I notice after this snake eats I find stool in a general same area, which isn't unusual. But in examining his lairs it is quite amusing how scrupulous he has been about them, not even a speck or scant trail of urates leading away or anywhere near them. It not the same with my cali king. But I think it has to do with opportunity, and enclosure.

I have noticed this similar tendency not only in snakes but in other taxa that have lairs long time, and it has been consistant. I have even seen this certain frogs and toads with permanent hollows. Oddly enough my whites tree frogs are as neat about their cork hollow as my Auffenberg's Monitor. Which to me indicates it is a very basal tendency, and instigated also by env opportunity.

I am waiting until Spring to add the rock build to G.Bs new encl.

[Kelly Mc]

Spring has sprung for Golden Boy.. Early Feb first '15 pics

[Kelly Mc]

If you look at #3 at G.Bs neck - he is swallowing last of a "nest" of 4 thawed pinks I gave him as his first spring meal. I put in cork log for him to "find". I am thinking of ordering some frz quail for enrichment, variety. He is attracted to avian tissue. I scent his mice with it, in a raw slurry form I keep frozen. What I had in the freezer was frosty, harmless but freezer burn can affect appeal so this time I used plain liver.

I post this to perhaps provide others with an option they may try, instead of using lizards.

It has worked for me very well.

[condyle]

I've never had coastal hatchlings refuse skink scented pinks. But for a nice change I may try the frozen quail for variety as you mention. A nice post brumation treat.

[VICtort]

If you look at #3 at G.Bs neck - he is swallowing last of a "nest" of 4 thawed pinks I gave him as his first spring meal. I put in cork log for him to "find". I am thinking of ordering some frz quail for enrichment, variety. He is attracted to avian tissue. I scent his mice with it, in a raw slurry form I keep frozen. What I had in the freezer was frosty, harmless but freezer burn can affect appeal so this time I used plain liver.

I post this to perhaps provide others with an option they may try, instead of using lizards.

It has worked for me very well.

Hi Kelly,

years ago I kept quite a few L.zonata's... I found that day old quail were a big hit, they were often preferred over fuzzy mice when I gave the snakes a choice. I think diversity in diet can only be a good thing, but not necessarily needed, more of a quality of life issue in my mind. It is apparent to me you consider such things, so I encourage you to offer the G.B. day old quail.

Kelly, watch for a PM regarding this somewhat off topic subject...Vic

[Kelly Mc]

Yeah ( :

Your post is reminding me to go ahead on Layne Labs. They really seem like a nice operation.

Ive been doing alot of scent assessment, habituation investigation with various taxa these past few years and its been really interesting.

What Ive found, to be basic and brief here, is that there are broader cues of acceptance in scent, motion (inc non motion) that havent been tried, and that create a feeding response. Alot of this is with lizards - getting them to eat thawed insects and composite foods, that conventionally are fed live.

With certain snakes I find that it is Non Threat Scent versus Potential Threat Scent, but these often must be coupled with presentation method.

Because GB takes his mice quicker with raw avian scent and because its very easy for me to do - just smear a tiny chip of frozen slurry from a ziplock in my freezer, I feed him that way.

A few times I just used a little piece of raw liver.

Other snakes preferring lizards (grey bands, milks) I have used lizard urates, a powdery touch on head, between shoulders of pink, rinsed of husbandry smells. CB clean Bearded dragon, leopard geckos mostly. It always works.

Im not taking stance on the ethics of using wild natives but have explored tactics that enabled independence from their use, and opened up interesting windows of feeding cue observations.

[Kelly Mc]

Bye the way Hi Vic!

Hi to you too Codyle! Yes a good treat after brum! Quail

[Kelly Mc]

G.B some moments 2016

[Zach_Lim]

Long time since I looked in this section of the forum.

Kel- golden boy is looking great! What a fantastic animal. How long and thick is he? Zonata rarely get "that" big in the wild (multifasciata specific, although I have seen monster specimens in the wild a handful of times).

He is confluent in all the triads right? Gorgeous, just stunning.

[Kelly Mc]

Hi Zach I think he may have grown a little. I haven't measured him though this year. I'm glad you like him. Your post up there reminded me of an excellent personal field description you wrote about, regarding shock visual of Zs to habitat greens & browns. Other than the little parabolas he's pretty straight ringed guy. But the crossovers on some specimens are neat looking too.