whitewater

metalpest · Post by **metalpest** » May 15th, 2017, 11:33 am

Made a trip to the famous road. Pretty cool out, 61F at dusk and windy so not a lot of activity. Can't ever seem to get out there on a good night.

Red diamond rattlesnake lifer

Arroyo toad? lifer

Almost clarus longnose

Got too cold after a couple of passes. Saw one other herper who had only seen a coleonyx so we called it quits early.

mark buck · Post by **mark buck** » May 15th, 2017, 11:52 pm

Nice finds.

I think your Toad is actually just a Western Toad (Anaxyrus boreas),
they can vary quite a bit in coloration/pattern.

Hopefully someones corrects me if I'm wrong about the Toad,
if that is in fact an Arroyo, that would be a very good find for that area.

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 16th, 2017, 10:43 am

It's a Red Spotted Toad. Very common there.

metalpest · Post by **metalpest** » May 16th, 2017, 6:22 pm

Red spotted? I ruled that out quick when I didn't see any red spots. Body does look similar now that I take a closer look. Read online later that there are arroyo toads in whitewater, was really hoping I happened across one, but it didn't really look like any pictures I could find of any species. Found right over the bridge that crosses the river, able to see water from the car.

mark buck · Post by **mark buck** » May 16th, 2017, 11:12 pm

Yep I'm with rpecora on this one.

After taking a better look at your picture, it looks like a patternless Red Spotted Toad.
They also are somewhat variable in appearance and sometimes lack the bright red spots.

From what I've read there were 1 or 2 historical records of Arroyos at Whitewater but they were later said to be mistaken ID's.

lateralis · Post by **lateralis** » May 17th, 2017, 5:45 pm

At one time WW was considered as potential critical hab by the USFWS but the surveys did not prove out, and coupled with other evidence, it was decided that they were not there and the designation was not warranted. The toad in question is not an Arroyo toad, if it is, its the ugliest one I've ever seen

...btw nice ruber but be careful shooting them now that they are officially an SSC.

Jimi · Post by **Jimi** » May 18th, 2017, 9:06 am

@OP

Re: the toad ID, anurans can be tricky especially if you just rely on fairly plastic, and easily masked or distorted, characters like pigmentation. Structural characters are better. With bufonids & pelobatids, structures like spades, bosses, cranial crests, and parotoid glands are things you want to look at, every time. Are they there? What is their shape, their size, their orientation and location? Stuff like that.

Look at this:
http://www.californiaherps.com/identifi ... dskey.html

Thanks for the vicarious trip, and the pics.

cheers

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 18th, 2017, 1:26 pm

It's a Red spotted toad.

Whitewater red spotted toads:

Here is one from either Arizona or the Kingstons, I don't recall and could be another WW but I don't think so. This just to show variability is out there, and to suggest that just because one find doesn't look typical doesn't mean it's not what it is. I've seen a few occasions law enforcement officers take down people in a casino and you would never know they were LE. A little research and less assuming goes a long way.

Another WW atypical I don't know if these change color depending on condition and what not but not typical of most I've seen anywhere:

Nice to see that WW hasn't lost the attention. One of the best roads for learning how to night drive, and the diversity of the life that crosses that road is astounding. The next three years should be great and many more if we continue to get the precipitation the years to come.

metalpest · Post by **metalpest** » May 20th, 2017, 4:39 pm

Thanks for the help on the toad ID! Love the anurans just not familiar with identifying them and didn't spend much time with him as we were hoping to spot some snakes we've never seen out there.

Does the SSC listing mean we cannot move them off the road?

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 22nd, 2017, 10:37 am

lateralis · Post by **lateralis** » May 22nd, 2017, 2:04 pm

Does the SSC listing mean we cannot move them off the road?
No.

I'd check that out with CDFW first...

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 22nd, 2017, 4:06 pm

The problem would be there is no right answer other than no problem. It's part of being a "Good Samaritan".
Removing animals threatened (by traffic) is not against any law. Now, civil law would permit a driver to sue you for any damage done to their car.

I took a dead speck off the road in Anza Borrego state park with a ranger watching me. When he arrived I was photographing it. I used a hook and slid it off the road. After making sure I was not hunting, he said that he does the same thing.

lateralis · Post by **lateralis** » May 22nd, 2017, 6:25 pm

The problem would be there is no right answer other than no problem. It's part of being a "Good Samaritan".
Removing animals threatened (by traffic) is not against any law.

Definitely the "good" thing to do (save wildlife from getting hit) BUT, it would really depend upon the warden and the circumstances. Not to nitpick but being a "Good Samaritan" could very well back fire on someone and I would hate to see someone go through the ringer because a warden does not care to sort it out in the field; in light of any confusion, they would simply write the ticket and let a judge figure it out (plus there are wardens who really don't care, what they do care about is giving a ticket and once you are in the "system" you will learn just how dysfunctional our justice system can be). Having someone that is totally out of touch with game law deciding my fate (especially in an election year as an example) is not something I care to experience. Take the safe bet and double check with CDFW, better to find out the easy way than the hard way in my book. It may sound altruistic or plain nutz, but if you end up in the court system and playing with them for awhile over a snake, I guarantee you that in hind sight you would of let that snake get smashed once you learned that saving it was going to cost you in time and money.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 23rd, 2017, 6:27 am

blah, blah, blah, .....
Do the right thing or don't.
Worry about "the man", or be the man....

Make a choice.

Definitely the "good" thing to do (save wildlife from getting hit) BUT, it would really depend upon the warden and the circumstances. Not to nitpick but being a "Good Samaritan" could very well back fire on someone and I would hate to see someone go through the ringer because a warden does not care to sort it out in the field; in light of any confusion, they would simply write the ticket and let a judge figure it out (plus there are wardens who really don't care, what they do care about is giving a ticket and once you are in the "system" you will learn just how dysfunctional our justice system can be). Having someone that is totally out of touch with game law deciding my fate (especially in an election year as an example) is not something I care to experience. Take the safe bet and double check with CDFW, better to find out the easy way than the hard way in my book. It may sound altruistic or plain nutz, but if you end up in the court system and playing with them for awhile over a snake, I guarantee you that in hind sight you would of let that snake get smashed once you learned that saving it was going to cost you in time and money.

lateralis · Post by **lateralis** » May 23rd, 2017, 8:00 am

blah, blah, blah, .....
Do the right thing or don't.
Worry about "the man", or be the man....

A dead speck in AB (likely planted by your warden, why else would he be watching you?) is not a good comparison. Just sit back, be quiet, and let the adults talk - you might learn something.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 23rd, 2017, 8:21 am

I am 60 years old, you ignorant freak.

The speck was not planted.

I think you are just paranoid.

pm sent...

gcsnelling · Post by **gcsnelling** » May 23rd, 2017, 3:51 pm

Well I do not know about the rangers in Anza Borrego, but I do know that fish and game used to commonly do such things at White water. It was common for them to place a piece of white rope banded with black tape to get people to stop thinking it was a king snake.

lateralis · Post by **lateralis** » May 23rd, 2017, 4:17 pm

I am 60 years old, you ignorant freak.

The speck was not planted.

I think you are just paranoid.

pm sent...

I would have expected a more mature response from an adult, you sound like some of my students. Ignorant sums up both your attitude and your post(s) which was obviously confrontational from the get go (remember the blah, blah, blah part?)... PM ignored and deleted

XOX

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 5:05 am

Whatever.....
I almost said the same thing though...
I thought you sounded like one of my students.
I am a teacher also.

By the way the pm was meant to inform, not ridicule.
It's a shame, you may have learned something.

Back on topic though...
I was on Whitewater last night. ...
No snakes, just the gex and toads (along with two other cars not herping).

By the way, if you are stopped by a fake snake and go pick it up.
What can they do?
I always have a current CA. fishing license which allows me to collect reptiles.
They can ask for my ID and license and after 15 minutes or so I just say to them "Gee wasn't this fun!".
Then I am down the road still looking for what I can legally collect (since 1974).
No worries...

And here is a secret; many, many years ago in my twenties, me and several friends would paint white stripes on 12 inch pieces of bicycle inner tubes and toss them out on WW. Rubber snakes, plastic tarantulas, and rope, we used to have quite the time with other herpers. All in fun though.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 24th, 2017, 7:56 am

Are blah blah blah and whatever part of your repertoire of teaching tools?

I cannot bring myself to quote your other comment because it was so insane.

I feel bad for the more intelligent students in your classroom.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 8:12 am

It's very easy to point fingers, and call names.
Assuming you can tell someones age and intelligence by what they post on a forum is just plain ignorant.
There are 20-25 people that post here that have met me in person. I will take criticism from them, and give some back.
But neither of the two you know much about me. The cracks I post here when I have a contrary opinion seem to annoy you...
Well good.

Blah, Blah, Blah, and whatever are my concise ways of saying yes, you have and opinion but so do I.
By doing so I avoid the personal attacks you both seem so fond of.

Calling me immature is below both of you.
I only return in kind...

But really aren't we here to talk about herping at Whitewater. I road cruised there in 1974 with Kent VanSooy, his Father, and another friend.
I have continued to road cruise there more than 4 times every year since. This is a picture I took in 1976. Snow Creek is just across the valley from Whitewater. Kent is on the right.

Please pm me with any questions and stop the character assassinations.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 24th, 2017, 8:36 am

What is it you're trying to prove?

Alot of people here know/knew alot of other individuals - how does that fit in with this at all?

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 8:40 am

I am not trying to prove anything, but that my opinion is as good as yours or Lateralis.

I have a great deal of experience in the Whitewater area of California. I visited there regularly for over thirty years.

Have you?

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 24th, 2017, 8:43 am

Insecure, easily threatened and immature teachers can turn a classroom into their own little private pageant of misery for some students.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 8:46 am

You must have personal experiences that I do not have. And I am none of those things.

My students are energized and intelligent.

Scott I apologize for my part in this mess. It went to far.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 24th, 2017, 9:12 am

Your apology is incomplete. As usual you focus on The Top Guy. You dont owe me an apology, I just thought I would point that out.

I don't feel it necessary to apologize for anything I have said here.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 10:12 am

Scott Waters is the moderator, I met him briefly once. That part of the message was to him.

Done....

WSTREPS · Post by **WSTREPS** » May 24th, 2017, 11:54 am

By the way, if you are stopped by a fake snake and go pick it up.
What can they do?

It gives them an excuse. Once you take the bait they can stop you and have probable cause to harass you , root thru your stuff etc. Maybe even write up a BS citation for who knows what to pad the numbers.

Ernie Eison

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 1:02 pm

You call it harass, I call it simple contact.
I have been stopped by wardens, rangers, Border Patrol, BLM, Highway Patrol, Sheriffs, city cops etc. All in all over 100 times in more than 40 years of herping and fishing in more than 20 states. Not one ever rooted through my stuff or wrote me a BS citation. I got a few lectures, but those could also be called simple conversations.

I was stopped one time in AZ. by a County Sheriff only to have the officer come to my window and say " Do you know you have a snake crawling in your back window?" I laughed really hard. My son had not secured a bag well and it had gotten out. He never even asked for a drivers license or hunting license.

Call me a "Pollyanna" or real lucky if you want to. But don't call me a child or stupid.

I am sure somewhere along the line I got a speeding ticket while herping, but it was not harassment. I was breaking the law.

On the topic of Whitewater, I remember being stopped twice there. Both times when I showed my ID and fishing license, I was told that they were looking for criminals. Once they said prostitutes (which I had seen there years before, and quickly left). And the other time they were looking for drug dealers, which kinda made sense. Neither stop lasted more than 10 minutes, no search, nothing to complain about. The last time was more than 6 years ago.

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 24th, 2017, 2:11 pm

Ha, well this turned into something that I haven't seen here in quite sometime. Reminds me of the old days of the forums.

As far as Species of Special Concern goes they have no legal status of protection so as long as you are otherwise legal, interact as you wish.

WSTREPS · Post by **WSTREPS** » May 24th, 2017, 2:14 pm

You call it harass, I call it simple contact.

The question was if you are stopped by a fake snake and go pick it up.
What can they do?

Yep, I call it harassment. One persons limited experience is just that. LE certainly does harass innocent people and do write up BS citiations etc. If it hasn't happened to you count yourself lucky.

The pretend reptile trick gives them an excuse. What do you think they do when someone falls for the bait? The entire point is that if someone stops they are OMG a poaching suspect. The only way to know is to root thru their stuff. The fake reptile stop gives them the reason. They just cant pull people over and search their vehicles without probable cause. Someone stopping for the bait gives them probable cause and justifies their night. You can spin that all kinds of ways and they do.

This whole baiting people with fake animals has been going on for years and has had virtually no success. So little in fact that year after year they have to point to the very few times it has worked to justify this continuing waste of time and money. I would love to know the total paid hours Wildlife enforcement agents have spent sitting in their cars texting their girlfriends and looking at Facebook while waiting for someone to stop for a rubber lizard.

Ernie Eison

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 24th, 2017, 2:29 pm

While I don't necessarily disagree with you (semantics I guess), FG is checking for licenses, no different than walking a shoreline checking fishing licenses, no baiting required...by them. It is more newsworthy to them to use this baiting scheme to promote that people are poaching wildlife rather than just a method for checking wildlife recreational-ist's are doing so while properly licensed. They have a duty to deter, that is one way of doing it. If you make a few passes on a notorious snake road, that too is probable cause.

They get paid a salary regardless of the time spent. Whether that time spent is actually productive to the mission is questionable.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 2:31 pm

rpecora...
I have seen Thamnophis hammondii on Whitewater twice, way up near the back.
Aren't they a species of special concern also.

I also saw a lone Crotalus enyo on WW once. If you do a search here on FHF it is all there and pictures.

Ernie, if I saw a fake snake on the road, I would walk up take a picture of it then kick it to the shoulder. Even if they used that as probable cause to talk to me about being a fake snake kicker, they certainly could not cite me for it. I am legal in all other ways, I repeat "Gee isn't this fun". I also wonder how many LE officers are trolling here, data mining for future investigations. Oh wait a minute..... I am 100% legal, I really don't care.

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 24th, 2017, 2:46 pm

They are. Don't recall ever seeing one there.

I recall the enyo thread.

A friend found a pine snake there also.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 24th, 2017, 2:59 pm

Pretty soon we can go catch Ball Pythons, Retics and Burms there...

Maybe not, if the fake snake folks are vigilant.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 24th, 2017, 4:13 pm

Jimi wrote:@OP

Re: the toad ID, anurans can be tricky especially if you just rely on fairly plastic, and easily masked or distorted, characters like pigmentation. Structural characters are better. With bufonids & pelobatids, structures like spades, bosses, cranial crests, and parotoid glands are things you want to look at, every time. Are they there? What is their shape, their size, their orientation and location? Stuff like that.

Look at this:
http://www.californiaherps.com/identifi ... dskey.html

Thanks for the vicarious trip, and the pics.

cheers

Originally I was wanting to quote this for its usefulness in what I like to think of as the topography of Toad Heads. There is often such a sea of contention about markings and colors in herps but the structure are the songs that remain the same. And they are equally beautiful - especially up close.

As for conflicts here, I have made mistakes - all of them I have made I felt embarrassed about and regretted. Telling myself I would never do it again, but getting involved in some disparity that perhaps touched on my own insecurity. The most I can do is be accountable to them in not deleting them, even though I think reading them has made some members refrain from interacting with me. But I do regret each and every one. If I have ever rubbed anyone the wrong way I do apologize. I dont go online on any other message board. Only here. There must be a reason I want to be with all of you. We all share something we have been passionate about since we were children and it hasnt ever faded. If anything it just expands. FHF really enhances it, as a gathering spot for all of us.

gcsnelling · Post by **gcsnelling** » May 24th, 2017, 4:43 pm

craigb wrote:rpecora...
I have seen Thamnophis hammondii on Whitewater twice, way up near the back.

I to have seen hammondii there, but down lower. A picture of it I posted at the other large herp site got me an email from someone asking to buy my "wild" caught, a term used several times in the email. Hmmm fish and game maybe?? I politely replied that I did not collect it and it would be illegal for me to sell it if I had, nothing more from the prospective buyer.

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 24th, 2017, 4:57 pm

Very edge of the their range I suspect, but certainly makes sense. Plenty of water in good years, not to mention the ponds on the other side of the crossing with fish. Interesting on the e-mail, never been approached in that manner. Been approached on the road with an obvious upper desert boa before though.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 25th, 2017, 7:30 am

rpecora: if you check the caherps site there is a small tear drop at the outskirts of T. hamonndii range. I always assumed that to be Whitewater. When the trout farm was still operating, there was quite a large population there. I haven't seen it recently, but panning the river for gold was popular also. They must have been making some bucks. I remember seeing 10-20 people panning not far from the road.

gcsnelling: Do you remember the "Recycler" newspaper. It was basically a prehistoric Craigslist. I used to see ads for tiger kittens, civet cats, various birds of prey, ferrets, crocodiles and all forms poached animals. These ads were all placed by law enforcement officers waiting for callers to incriminate themselves by giving their names, addresses, and the fact that they really needed a mate for their other (insert name of poached animal). People with poached animals would often brag about them (not smart). There were lots of huge stings and busts in those days.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 25th, 2017, 10:41 am

Ugh I read over this thread and realized it wasnt clear that when I admitted I made mistakes here I meant in a historical context "here" at FHF (some debate type exchanges, I honestly regret engaging in or at least moments of)

I didnt mean "here" as in responding to the vitriol of Craig's ad hominem to another poster.

I do dislike your ways Craig, and this is an imperfect format, its poised deliberacy and ease of elusive disappearance from a conversation is contrary to natural speak.

I try to be as natural as I can despite that and dont mind being vulnerable.

We are still human here, communicating with one another.

WSTREPS · Post by **WSTREPS** » May 25th, 2017, 12:22 pm

While I don't necessarily disagree with you (semantics I guess), FG is checking for licenses, no different than walking a shoreline checking fishing licenses, no baiting required...by them.

If you make a few passes on a notorious snake road, that too is probable cause.

Yes it is different. Walking a shoreline checking fishing licenses involves checking people who are fishing or in possession of fishing gear. LE are not leaving fishing rods on the beech hoping someone picks one up and starts casting. The marine patrol aren't that desperate to look busy. Making a few passes on a notorious snake road might be considered probable cause but that's a grey area especially if the stop involves a search. The Fourth Amendment comes into play its different then someone stopping to investigate what they been have been tricked into thinking is a protected species. At that point the person is a legitimate suspect.

gcsnelling: Do you remember the "Recycler" newspaper. It was basically a prehistoric Craigslist. I used to see ads for tiger kittens, civet cats, various birds of prey, ferrets, crocodiles and all forms poached animals. These ads were all placed by law enforcement officers waiting for callers to incriminate themselves by giving their names, addresses, and the fact that they really needed a mate for their other (insert name of poached animal). People with poached animals would often brag about them (not smart). There were lots of huge stings and busts in those days.

They still do this . Absolutely LE trolls this site. That's all theses clowns do. They have dedicated officers that do nothing but make in the range of six figures sitting on their ass's all day trolling the internet. Looking for what ? A small time guy with a couple turtles or maybe a rattlesnake. That's all these DK's ever come up with and that's few and far in between. The only place reptile bust are big is in the press. There is real crime that needs to addressed and it has nothing to with snakes and lizards. Reptile nonsense is the last thing anybody should be worried about.

Ernie Eison

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 25th, 2017, 12:34 pm

Ernie: Your last three sentences are "gold". I couldn't agree more!
The other stuff about the clowns getting paid to look for the guy selling two undersized turtles, I get it. But it doesn't bother me all that much.
Many people are paid enormous sums of of money to do very simple and inane tasks, I don't lose a sleep over it. Politicians, bureaucrats, and lawyers make more per hour while in the restroom dropping the kids off at the pool than I make all day. But I enjoy what I do, and make a positive difference in peoples' lives.

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 25th, 2017, 3:21 pm

How's your partner, Todd The Snake Man, Craig?

rpecora · Post by **rpecora** » May 25th, 2017, 3:50 pm

Walking a shoreline checking fishing licenses involves checking people who are fishing or in possession of fishing gear. LE are not leaving fishing rods on the beech hoping someone picks one up and starts casting.

Great analogy. Like I stated "While I don't necessarily disagree with you...", not entrapment either just checking for licenses. However your point is taken as LE uses this type of sting (practice) for other actual illegal vices as well.

metalpest · Post by **metalpest** » May 25th, 2017, 6:27 pm

The fake snake looks like a king from the car. By stopping and checking it out, you are clearly looking for snakes. You cannot pick up a kingsnake without a FL, so yes they can check and write up for that.

I stopped for it my first trip there. Did not have a license, but with camera in hand explained that we were there to document and photograph only. I offered him to look in my car to see that I had no collecting equipment and he did not cite me. Spoke to him about where to find various snakes in the area and he advised. I suppose you could claim you are looking for rattlesnakes but he could come back with you stopped for an obvious king.

Even if he does not cite very many people, I think it is well known that they are there checking which could result in people paying for the license who would not have otherwise, so the money may still trickle in due to people trying to stay legal.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 25th, 2017, 9:19 pm

Kelly; This is a thread about Whitewater. Please, pm any questions about anything off topic.

Metalpest; get that fishing license. Have you tried very early mornings? I have been tempted to. Tuesday night when I was there at 10 pm it was still 95 degrees. By 4-5 am it went down into the low 80s.

It's about a two hour drive for me. I may try an all nighter sometime. I did it with friends when I was much younger. I should be able to make it with enough Monsters and Rockstars.

Anyone else ever herp all night?

Kelly Mc · Post by **Kelly Mc** » May 25th, 2017, 10:45 pm

Craig - I have no inclination to follow any of your directives, I can post what I wish and I would never open a PM from you, nor would I ever send one to you.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 26th, 2017, 4:09 am

Really????
That makes me sad, that you think I am so frightening.

Then please join in the discussion about Whitewater.

By the way this is what was in the pm:
"Kelly, Todd is a nice guy, I guess. I never actually met him. We talked at CALRIS, emailed, and on the phone a dozen or so times. We had similar beliefs about education and helping first time reptile keepers. I have not talked to him in over a year. I don't get to Fresno much, and he shut down California Reptile and Invertebrate Society (CALRIS). I did a few education presentations and REPTICON, NARBC, and Reptile Super Shows for CALRIS. I have done that kind of reptile education with SCHAR (Southern California Herpetology Association and Rescue) for more than 40 years.
But I did like the CALRIS format better. I liked being available online to give specific information to people that lacked the experience.

SCHAR is huge now and doesn't do the same things I used to do. They do more public outreach and public service like presentations for non profits, city fairs, charity events, and a few shows. They also have more than a hundred members , and a southern chapter in San Diego County.

Is that enough about me? I really am a mean, nasty, old fart, but also a good actor. "

Craig

metalpest · Post by **metalpest** » May 26th, 2017, 9:01 pm

Craig, I do have the license now. I do not collect and therefore did not think I needed one back then. The officer did not say I cannot pick the up without one, it was someone else later that mentioned it so I went ahead and got one to prevent any future issues and allow myself the temporary possession of picking up a find and posing for pictures before release.

Forgot to say, the officer did state that without the camera in hand I would have been ticketed.

craigb · Post by **craigb** » May 27th, 2017, 5:28 am

But that was because you did not have the license.

The thought here is that you should have been ticketed, because the officer was trying to fill his quota and entrap you. But you just proved my point. The officer did not ticket you even though you did not have the license.

If you have the license, you can pick up and collect the legal limits stated in the regulations.
That is what I don't understand. For $47.01, you can hunt Whitewater for 365 days LEGALLY.
Why wouldn't you buy it?

Tuesday, I spent almost $47.01 in gas driving out there once. Maybe I am the crazy one.