Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

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ChadKS
Posts: 2
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 10:09 am

Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by ChadKS »

Hello Folks. Here are some milks from the midwest.

floodplain milks from SE AR, syspila x amaura.
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SE AR
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SE Illinois
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NE KS
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W KS
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NW MO
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NW MO
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SW Illinois
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SE MO
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W KS
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SE Illinois
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SW Illinois
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SW Illinois
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SW Illinois
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S Illinois
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S Illinois
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NW Kentucky
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NW Kentucky
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C Kentucky
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N AZ
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SE MO
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S Illinois
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S Illinois
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C MO
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S Illinois
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S Illinois hypo
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SE MO
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S Illinois
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NW MO
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C MO
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W KS
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W KS
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NW MO
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Wyoming
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Wyoming
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E KS
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S Illinois
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E KS
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S Illinois
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S Illinois
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C MO
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NW MO
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Iowa
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SE OK
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SE AR
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E KS
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Scott Waters
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Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Scott Waters »

Bro….very nice. Way to light up the ol’ FHF!

Scott

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Kelly Mc
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Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Stunners All.

hcarlton
Posts: 10
Joined: August 22nd, 2021, 5:12 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by hcarlton »

Having only found one in the wild so far...I need to bump up my numbers clearly.
Stuck staring at that one piebald(? not really the right term but not sure what fits) one from western Kansas; that has got to be the coolest milk I've ever seen a photo of, and I'm dying now to try and figure out what the genetics or environmental effects are behind making that.

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Porter
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Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

hcarlton wrote:
September 12th, 2021, 10:01 pm
Stuck staring at that one piebald(? not really the right term but not sure what fits) one from western Kansas; that has got to be the coolest milk I've ever seen a photo of, and I'm dying now to try and figure out what the genetics or environmental effects are behind making that.
Hybrid 🦏

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Kelly Mc
Posts: 4464
Joined: October 18th, 2011, 12:03 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Kelly Mc »

Its an allele blip.

Pattern/color anomaly can happen in any pigmented animal. But seems to be most common in animals prone to "locality" or individual variability.

Because human beings are so visually oriented and even extend values on visual differences we tend to put inordinate focus on them inmo.

Someone fluent in the card deck of milk mutations could explain the probable recessive outcomes responsible.

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Porter
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Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

🗺

ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

ImageUntitled by The Singing Frog, on Flickr

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Porter
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Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

OK so here’s my reasoning… It’s based mostly off of the other individuals found in W Kansas. I’m assuming they’re from the same locale, or close to it. They are the only milk snakes that have a lateral fade on the side of their bodies. Which is a trait of the longnose. Even the piebald individual has this fading. In the other photos, those individuals also have this bizarre unique patterning. Which is usually influenced by hybridIzation (like in trout/fish) they have similar markings as rhino and their snouts look more slender to My eye. I think it is the influence of 🦏 🧬

I have spoken… ✋🏻 Like Nick Nolte. The ugnaught 💁🏻‍♂️

EB90721E-B18A-4255-93B1-C5F00BBFED5C.jpeg

ChadKS
Posts: 2
Joined: December 5th, 2018, 10:09 am

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by ChadKS »

Porter wrote:
September 15th, 2021, 10:13 pm
OK so here’s my reasoning… It’s based mostly off of the other individuals found in W Kansas. I’m assuming they’re from the same locale, or close to it. They are the only milk snakes that have a lateral fade on the side of their bodies. Which is a trait of the longnose. Even the piebald individual has this fading. In the other photos, those individuals also have this bizarre unique patterning. Which is usually influenced by hybridIzation (like in trout/fish) they have similar markings as rhino and their snouts look more slender to My eye. I think it is the influence of 🦏 🧬

I have spoken… ✋🏻 Like Nick Nolte. The ugnaught 💁🏻‍♂️


EB90721E-B18A-4255-93B1-C5F00BBFED5C.jpeg
I get your reasoning and commend you for putting thought into it. However, these snakes definitely are not hybrids and that's certain. Not only do these specific milks come from a geographic area that isn't shared by longnoses, but they just do not hybridize anywhere where the two types do occur sympatrically. If you have an example I would be incredibly stoked to see it. Both are fairly conspicuous creatures for herpers and yet a hybrid has never been presented or documented, at least to my geeky milk snake knowledge. Thanks for the interesting topic.

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Porter
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Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

Oh have those individuals been tail-clipped and analyzed already? I was under the impression that longnose Were up for consideration to be put on a threatened list for Kansas at one time… maybe it was just some thing I miss read. Are you saying that there are no longnose upstream from where you found your individuals? Also, is there documentation saying they did not exist there in the 1800s?

In northern California, there is only one locale where you can find hybrid kingsnake x gopher snake. However, you can find kingsnakes and gopher snakes existing together throughout the state. They’ve only chosen to hybridize at this one specific locale though. For whatever reason. So just because the two exist in other areas doesn’t necessarily mean that the individuals in your photos aren’t of both DNA.

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Jeff
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Joined: June 11th, 2010, 5:01 am
Location: Louisiana

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Jeff »

Chad
The tricolorgasm hit me about halfway through, so I left the post to finish on its own.
My only trip to E Kansas was to the Flint Hills with Tom Sinclair. We found 15 milks in 48 hours, and despite the great variation, I was milk-satiated. Here in S Louisiana my best day is 3, and 2 milk-days are infrequent.
There seems to be a lower Midwest form that would be syspila, which includes most of your photos from E KS to W KY and Iowa south into Arkansas. What got my attention was how very different the western snakes were from the 'syspila' bunch. In fact, the N AZ snake could almost pass for a zonata.
Yours is a classic presentation of how variation within a subspecies can eclipse defined differences between subspecies.
As Scott said, great to see a FHF revival.

Porter
Cal Kings/gopher hybrids? Did I miss a post on these, or, do you have photos?

Jeff

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Porter
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Joined: March 19th, 2011, 6:43 pm

Re: Milk Snakes from the last few years...Dial up warning.

Post by Porter »

Jeff wrote:
September 16th, 2021, 3:53 pm

Porter
Cal Kings/gopher hybrids? Did I miss a post on these, or, do you have photos?

Jeff
🤐

There isn’t much I can say as I’m sworn to secrecy… but I can say this. Someone brought forth the info and entrusted their whereabouts with me, based on my unique integrity & outlook on field herping (I.e. not placing Mountain kingsnakes above gophers and garters, etc…) an opinion that this person shares and feels very strongly about. More than one individual has been found there and Or at least one other person knows about it. The type of herper/collector that this place needs to be protected from... I visited the place twice as early as February for scouting purposes, and several rocks had already been flipped and not put back, The ones put back were not resealed at the edges , and it appeared as if someone was frantically and vigorously searching the place with all respect set aside for The animals and/or their habitat

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