Possible Country Records for the US

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Don Cascabel
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Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

Here's a fun one for those of you who live close to the border...

Herps that could be found in the USA, but haven't yet...

California:

Bogertophis rosaliae (one record, probably legit, but very controversial... someone could find this if they tried)

Arizona:

Phyllodactylus homolepidurus
Bufo mazatlanensis
Trimorphodon tau
Boa constrictor???
Leptodactylus melanonotus
Ctenosaura macrolophus

(any of those could turn up on the res or possibly in se. Az. somewhere)

New Mexico:

Ambystoma rosaceum - That thing totally crosses the border somewhere in NM.
Phrynosoma ditmarsi - also
Storeria storerioides - possible, it get's close

Texas:

Who knows, but I think southern and western TExas have been sampled pretty good.

Go look!

Chris
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azatrox
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by azatrox »

I'm on the lookout for those every time I'm down by the border...

Would be really cool to voucher a wild Boa constrictor north of the border...My understanding is that they're not that far south of it.

-Kris
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Don Becker
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Becker »

I didn't know the native range of boa constrictors came that close to the US border. I always assumed they only ranged through the souther half of mexico.
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reptilist
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by reptilist »

I found one in Tucson, at Campbell and Prince.
Paul White
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Paul White »

specially if we ever get rains back
*grumble grumble grumble*
damn right. I want some moisture. It's been a bone dry winter and spring so far and the streams and ponds are drying up again.
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Correcamino
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Correcamino »

Yeah,
Boa constrictor, Imantodes gemmistratus and I believe Trimorphodon tau have all been found at Benjamin Hill, Sonora. I believe there is a tau record almost right on the border but on the Mexican side somewhere near Cochise County.
And then there are the old records for Psuedoeurycea belli near Prescott...
CC
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MHollanders
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by MHollanders »

Haven't the borders been herped extensively already? Every year the forum is flooded by posts from SE AZ/SW NM, although I'm not sure if that's where these animals would pop up.
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Kent VanSooy
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Kent VanSooy »

What about Bipes in AZ? I've heard rumors and speculation....
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Natalie McNear
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Natalie McNear »

DFRetes wrote:Back to boas, we Bill Garska and I, investigated a report by a forest ranger. He was on horseback and found what sounded like an adult boa. 7ft long, fat, dark brown, etc. This was also in the same area as vinesnakes and the cateyed snake. Which by the way, is directly north in the same mountain ranges as the most northern boa populations.
Sounds like someone likely overestimated the size of a dark adult gophersnake they saw. B. c. imperator of the northern mountains of Sonora are a dwarf variety, even the females only get slightly over 5 feet in length.
Crotalus
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

Don't forget to keep an eye out for Phrynosoma ditmarsi in SE AZ/SW NM.

Ambystoma rosaceum makes it somewhat close to the border, but only place that would really make sense would be the Animas.


Edit: oops, saw you included these.
Crotalus
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

MHollanders wrote:Haven't the borders been herped extensively already? Every year the forum is flooded by posts from SE AZ/SW NM, although I'm not sure if that's where these animals would pop up.
Yes that region gets visited by herp tourists hunting the same canyons/ranges that people have been hitting for the last 50 years. Very few herpers are hitting new areas, so there are still plenty of gaps in our knowledge of herp distribution by the border. Some of the gaps are because of access (i.e. some of the species DC mentioned have a good chance of showing up on reservation land), just plain laziness (Huachucas for the 109281982917289 time anyone?), and secrecy, but I think a large part of it is that not many herpers are confident enough in their abilities to spend resources looking for stuff without someone posting one from that locale a week earlier.

-JJ
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

Oh, add Coleonyx fasciatus. I think there's a record from near Cananea for them - I doubt it's the "real TDF fasciatus" but its still worth taking a look at any geckos in that area.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

DFRetes wrote: Crotalus, Coleonyx fasciatus Is without question found close to Cananea. I collected three and turned two over to the ASDM. But they somehow failed to do anything with them.
The animals indeed are more, fasciatus. They were within that same 50 miles south of the border number.
I doubt it, but I'd love to see some pics. There are a bunch of "fasciatus" in collections that aren't the same beast as the C. fasciatus popping up in the TDF in southern Sonora and Sinaloa.

-JJ
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The Real Snake Man
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by The Real Snake Man »

DFRetes wrote:Also, many years ago, I found a dor cat eyed snake in the same area as vine snakes, etc.
What kind of cat-eyed snake (scientific name), and in Mexico or the western U.S.?
Shane_TX
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Shane_TX »

Ambystoma rosaceum - That thing totally crosses the border somewhere in NM.
Not familiar with the species other than a quick google, but is it possible that it may rest in a jar labeled as tigrinum?

Shane
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »


Not familiar with the species other than a quick google, but is it possible that it may rest in a jar labeled as tigrinum?

Shane
The adults look pretty similar, but they live up high, so it'd almost have to be a "tigrinum" someone picked up in a creek through pine/oak in the animas or peloncillos or something of the sort.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by erik loza »

Somewhat off-topic but how feasible is to herp around the border areas in AZ or SoCal, for rosaliae, for example, with so much activity from USBP, illegals, cartel action, etc.?

Just curious because it's been some time since I lived in CA.
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Natalie McNear
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Natalie McNear »

LOTS of border patrol down in the areas of AZ where I was, expect to get pulled over all the time for driving suspiciously at night (road cruising). I also encountered several illegals in the wilderness, none of whom were threatening. It's really the smugglers (of both drugs and humans) you need to watch out for.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by gretzkyrh4 »

Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)

Chris
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by erik loza »

It's all Cartel action here in TX. Maybe the danger aspect does not exist in CA or AZ?

Thanks for responding.
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Chris Smith
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Chris Smith »

gretzkyrh4 wrote:Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)

Chris
Well there was just a NEW species of salamander discovered in the U.S.... does that count? If not, I don't know.

See: Urspelerpes brucei

-Chris
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by gretzkyrh4 »

Thats true. I forgot about Urspelerpes.
Crotalus
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

gretzkyrh4 wrote:Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)

Chris
Just throwing some out there:

Bogertophis rosaliae in 1984
Coleonyx switaki in 1982 (but I guess there were rumors since the 70s?)

Maybe Xantusia wigginsi? Anyone know when Chionactis palarostris was found in the US?
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by azatrox »

"Haven't the borders been herped extensively already? Every year the forum is flooded by posts from SE AZ/SW NM, although I'm not sure if that's where these animals would pop up.

LOL...I promise to ONLY post pics from SE Az or SW NM here if they contain one of the aforementioned animals...I wouldn't want to contribute to any flooding...

-Kris
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Talusman
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Talusman »

Image
Crotalus
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

klaub x pricei? Where's that from?

Edit: Nevermind, I've seen that snake before. Chiris right?
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Brandon La Forest
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Brandon La Forest »

Talusman wrote:Image
Wicked snake man!
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Crotalus wrote:
gretzkyrh4 wrote:Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)

Chris
Just throwing some out there:

Bogertophis rosaliae in 1984
Coleonyx switaki in 1982 (but I guess there were rumors since the 70s?)

Maybe Xantusia wigginsi? Anyone know when Chionactis palarostris was found in the US?

There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail. His name alludes me at the senior moment, but I'll come with it later, I'm sure.

TC
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Daryl Eby »

ratsnakehaven wrote:There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail.
An actual discovery of a new species, or just a split and re-description of a known population?
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Don Cascabel
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

I forgot about Coleonyx fasciatus (or possibly Coleonyx variegatus ssp. Nov.), whatever you want to call them and also about Leptodeira splendida ephippiata, which both range pretty close to the border around Cananea. I think the Leptodeira probably need a big Hylid around, so the res would be the most likely spot. Boas, Trimorphodon tau, Phyllodactylus homolepidurus and Ctenosaura all would be on the Res as well, up to the western and southern foothills of the Baboquivaris and Quinlans. Reality is the area between the Organ Pipe National Monument and the Baboquivaris (incuding the Baboquivaris) has not been well explored AT ALL. Only the Ajo Road (too flat and too far north) and the Kitt Peak Rd. (one slope of a huge mountain range).

Rich: I have heard Jerry Feldner mention Imantodes latistratus from around Benjamin Hill too, but I have searched EVERYWHERE and the only records seem to be from s. Sonora. I imagine that species needs Anolis present to survive, so I have a heard time buying them (or Anolis) ranging north of the Hwy. 16 corridor and not having been discovered yet. That being said, I could be wrong... if someone pulled an anole out of some canyon by Cananea somewhere, I would quickly believe Imantodes up there as well (they make it high in c. Mexico, like 2200 m at times).

JJ: I swear to god that there are rosaceum in New Mexico... there are just too many cattle ponds at high elevations in the Animas for them not to be. They are too close... and Ambystoma can and do crawl through drier desert valleys.

gretzkyrh4: I would say the last country records (at least outside of Texas) were probably Bogertophis (which was not widely accepted) and Coleonyx switaki.

Cheers,

Chris
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Don Cascabel
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

Guys the Bipes in Az is likely BS... aside from the habitat not really being right in the southeastern part of the state (with the exception of maybe west of Phoenix) I think the most important factor is that Bipes tends to be really common where it exists and all the ranch hands/ farmers recognize it immediately. There's enough ranchers in Az that someone would have dug one up by now. Also remember, the closest Bipes to Arizona are in Michoacán!!!!

Your better off looking for Plethodontids around Rich's house... that seems much more likely.

Chris
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

Don Cascabel wrote:Guys the Bipes in Az is likely BS... aside from the habitat not really being right in the southeastern part of the state (with the exception of maybe west of Phoenix) I think the most important factor is that Bipes tends to be really common where it exists and all the ranch hands/ farmers recognize it immediately. There's enough ranchers in Az that someone would have dug one up by now. Also remember, the closest Bipes to Arizona are in Michoacán!!!!

Your better off looking for Plethodontids around Rich's house... that seems much more likely.

Chris
KNOWN Bipes species are common where they are KNOWN to exist. It's those UNKNOWN Bipes species from UNKNOWN areas that we're worried about...
That said, I doubt they're in AZ.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Kent VanSooy »

Thanks Chris and JJ.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by joeysgreen »

I'm curious, why can't the reserve be herped? Is it any different than asking the farmer to hike his ranch? Are there any native american herpers? My wife is 1/16th alqononite or something like that; perhaps she's got an IN :)

Ian
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Don Cascabel
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

The Indians don't want you on there, and they have the right to kick you off/ arrest you. That being said, I have herped the res on many occasions. It's just like México (in fact, it looks the same)... if you drive on with a smile on your face and ask people nicely, they will not bother you. However if you are an a$$ about things and start telling them you have a right to do this and a right to do that, they'll kick you off. In my experience, the people from California had a lot easier time on the res. than the people from Arizona. LOL. I wonder why????

I have also herped the Mexican side of that res, but on both sides, I was primarily looking for amphibians.

Cheers,

Chris
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Natalie McNear »

Indians can arrest non-Indians simply for being on the reservation? :shock:
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Don Cascabel
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

Natalia: Yes. If you leave the federal highway, they can arrest you if they see fit. That being said, it's unlikely, as there are no checkpoints or signs pointing that out. What they can do (and often will) is "escort" you off the reservation.

I just re-checked some Sonoran distributions. Leptodeira don't get much north of Hwy. 16 as their range is currently understood. Masticophis mentovarius and Leptophis diplotropsis both get quite a ways up in Sonora though. Considering their distribution in c. México I certainly wouldn't count them on account of cold. Both of those could show up in the Baboquivaris.

Cheers,

Chris
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Aaron Mills »

Talusman wrote:Image
Alright, I'll bite. Do we only get a picture with no info? It looks exactly like what I would expect a klauberiXpricei to look like. AZ or Mex?
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by ratsnakehaven »

Daryl Eby wrote:
ratsnakehaven wrote:There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail.
An actual discovery of a new species, or just a split and re-description of a known population?

Well, it was a split from known populations, but resulted in a new species. It was published somewhere. I'll try to look it up.

TC
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by ratsnakehaven »

ratsnakehaven wrote:
Daryl Eby wrote:
ratsnakehaven wrote:There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail.
An actual discovery of a new species, or just a split and re-description of a known population?

Well, it was a split from known populations, but resulted in a new species. It was published somewhere. I'll try to look it up.

TC

The guy's name was Richard Hoyer. He was working with sharp-tailed snakes and discovered a population separate from other sharp-tails that had some unique characteristics. More work and some genetic testing resulted in a new species of sharp-tail...
http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/1522.pdf

Since then he's discovered a third population which is different, yet, and may result in another distinct form.

:shock: Terry
C. Smith
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by C. Smith »

I found a mazatlan toad in tubac last year. It was found on the golf course at tubac resort. I didnt realize what it was at first, thought it was a cane toad. It hit me a few minutes later, but the toad was gone. Since Im such a huge anuran fan, I didnt look for anymore.
Jackson Shedd
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Jackson Shedd »

Don Cascabel wrote:. Also remember, the closest Bipes to Arizona are in Michoacán!!!!

Chris
Other than B. biporus in Baja California Norte! Known Bipes that is. I refuse to believe that there are only three spp. existing between Baja and s. Mexico/n. Central America.

Would be cool getting into the area where P. ditmarsi likely enters the U.S., but roads are in short supply there, undoubtedly the reason they have yet to be documented north of the border.

It will be interesting to see what is determined with those C. fasciatus geckos once the study is published.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Jackson Shedd »

ratsnakehaven wrote:
Daryl Eby wrote:
ratsnakehaven wrote:There was a guy working with sharp-tailed snakes in Oregon/California a couple years ago that discovered a new species of sharp-tail.
An actual discovery of a new species, or just a split and re-description of a known population?

The guy's name was Richard Hoyer. He was working with sharp-tailed snakes and discovered a population separate from other sharp-tails that had some unique characteristics. More work and some genetic testing resulted in a new species of sharp-tail...
http://www.cnah.org/pdf_files/1522.pdf

Since then he's discovered a third population which is different, yet, and may result in another distinct form.

:shock: Terry
Hoyer was looking at long-tailed vs. short-tailed Contia for a number of years. It just took a while to get the description out, with support of genetic work only helping validate the research. People had just been throwing both forms into jars and labeling them "Contia tenuis" for years and years before someone came along and took a closer look.
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Robert Hansen »

The deal with Contia is that Hoyer knew he had something different based on morphology (markedly different tail lengths in adults, with populations of each in close proximity to each other). Quite independently, Chris Feldman was using mtDNA sequences of several reptile species looking for common geographic patterns of differentiation. He obtained a result from a Contia specimen that was quite different from his other samples and thought he had a contamination error. Re-tested the sample and confirmed its distinction from "standard" Contia tenuis. Hoyer and Feldman combined forces to describe C. longicaudae. Neat example that illustrates the hidden biodiversity even in relatively well-studied areas like California. Meanwhile, more salamander species are on the way :)
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Don Cascabel
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

Jackson: I was referring to direct pathways for dispersal. I think they jumped to Baja, WAAAY back when the southern tip was stuck to Jalisco, and have since adapted to drier climate on the Baja peninsula and have dispersed north on the peninusla, but had no way of getting over to Sonora. Stuff that exists on both sides of the peninsula (Sonora, Chilomeniscus, Lichanura) likely occurred further north and more recently and had their range split in two when Baja split off from the mainland. That being said, I guess stuff can get to Arizona the Baja route (C. mitchelli) but would probably still be present in n. Baja to this date.

Again, my vote goes NO on Bipes in Arizona/ Sonora/ Sinaloa. That being said, inland valleys in Nayarit and Jalisco could produce something, as could coastal Colima, Jalisco or Morelos, Puebla and OAxaca.

C. smith: Are you Colin? If so, you could have at least gotten a documention shot you nagger. Where the hell is Tubac anyway???

Cheers,

Chris
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azatrox
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by azatrox »

Tubac is in Santa Cruz County, Arizona. North of Nogales.

-Kris
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Don Cascabel
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Don Cascabel »

Yeah I found it on a map. That area could certainly have B. mazatlanensis, as could the area between the Pajaritos and the Baboquivaris, as well as the res. It strikes me as odd that the species hasn't been found in the US. Then again, not many people looking at toads down there. Or are there???
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azatrox
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by azatrox »

I can't say I've seen too many people with "toads on the brain" down there...There's certainly plenty of opportunity for "toad-minded" individuals though (particularly during the monsoon). Those things are ALL OVER the roads.

Another thing for me to keep an eye out for when I'm down that way...

-Kris
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by Crotalus »

Don Cascabel wrote: Again, my vote goes NO on Bipes in Arizona/ Sonora/ Sinaloa. That being said, inland valleys in Nayarit and Jalisco could produce something, as could coastal Colima, Jalisco or Morelos, Puebla and OAxaca.
What's the logic that says they can do deserts near San Ignacio in Baja and "inland valleys in Nayarit" but Sinaloa is a no go?
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jonathan
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Re: Possible Country Records for the US

Post by jonathan »

gretzkyrh4 wrote:Out of curiosity what was the last native "country record" in the US? (not taxonomic split or invasive in FL)

Chris
U. brucei wins, but several of the recent slender species really were new population discoveries and not just splits. I think the Inyo Slenders, Desert Slenders, San Gabriel Mountains Slenders, Kern Canyon Slenders, Tehachapi Slenders, and Kern Plateau Slenders are all species that were discovered between the 1960s and the 1990s. The Breckenridge Mountain Slender that hasn't been officially described yet was a newly discovered species too.

I think the Scott Bar Salamander was fairly recent too. And the Sandstone Night Lizard as well.
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