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 Post subject: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 12th, 2011, 5:36 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:48 am
Posts: 2357
Location: Delmarva
Ok test your ID skills on 10 Delmarva specimens.

Skink 1
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Skink 2
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Skink 3
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Skink 4
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Skink 5
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Skink 6
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Skink 7
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Skink 8
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Skink 9
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Skink 10
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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 12th, 2011, 7:21 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:22 am
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Location: Athens, OH
1- fasciatus
2- fasciatus
3- fasciatus
4- fasciatus
5- fasciatus
6- fasciatus
7- fasciatus
8- laticeps
9- fasciatus
10- fasciatus


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 13th, 2011, 7:49 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:01 pm
Posts: 733
1. Mario
2. Veronica
3. Gertrude
4. Dracula
5. Pat
6. Pearlie
7. Carmela
8. Nick
9. Vinnie
10. Theresa


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 14th, 2011, 6:51 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:22 pm
Posts: 585
wow, I don't know, but will be interested to learn about the differences,
they all look the same to me, so every skink is a five lined until I can learn the details.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 14th, 2011, 8:40 am 
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Joined: July 15th, 2010, 1:39 pm
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Location: MA
Carl, could you talk about what field marks you're using? I only know fasciatus, and wouldn't have any idea how to identify laticeps, so it'd be helpful :)

Carl Brune wrote:
1- fasciatus
2- fasciatus
3- fasciatus
4- fasciatus
5- fasciatus
6- fasciatus
7- fasciatus
8- laticeps
9- fasciatus
10- fasciatus


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 16th, 2011, 10:29 am 

Joined: August 30th, 2010, 10:39 am
Posts: 156
Location: East Coast
Quote:
Carl, could you talk about what field marks you're using? I only know fasciatus, and wouldn't have any idea how to identify laticeps, so it'd be helpful


Without giving too much away for the game, it's a matter of one different scale on their face.

I agree with Carl on the IDs. I can't imagine how many skinks you had to chase to catch 10 haha.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 16th, 2011, 1:46 pm 
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Location: Delmarva
There is one screwball in there, that I was positive of ID in the field, but now question based on the limited photographic evidence.

As you can see, the scalation that is typically used (labials & post labials) is variable within the species. However there is one character that I think I see on one that I have never seen on the other.

Carl, I too would like to hear your explanation or anyone else who would like to take a guess.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 16th, 2011, 8:09 pm 
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Location: Athens, OH
So yes, I'm going by the labials and post labials.

Upper labials (between rostral and first upper labial that reaches the eye, exclusive):
4 -> fasciatus
5 -> laticeps
This is far from 100%. In Ohio, it seems like ~15% of fasciatus have 5 on one side. I've never seen one with 5 on both sides, but I'm sure if I play this game long enough it will happen. You definitely want to photograph both sides.

Post Labials - scales in front of the ear opening, behind the upper labials. Disregard tiny scales.
2 larger, roughly equal-sized scales -> fasciatus
none, or 1 larger scale -> laticeps

I'm calling #7 a 4/5 upper-labial fasciatus.

I've read that young laticeps may show 7 lines, not sure where. I have no first-hand experience with that. I can see that on #8 and (perhaps) on #7.

There are also supposed to be some differences in the scalation on the toes, but I've never pursued that.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 17th, 2011, 8:19 am 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:31 pm
Posts: 254
Location: PA
Nate, are there any good articles that compare the morphology of these skinks? Also, do we know for a fact that fasciatus and laticeps are reproductively isolated?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 17th, 2011, 8:21 am 
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Joined: April 11th, 2011, 12:03 pm
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Can someone maybe put this into terms I can understand without having a degree? :lol: I want to be able to understand how to tell the difference, but I'm not savvy on the terminology.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 17th, 2011, 5:10 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 5:31 pm
Posts: 118
Location: SW PA
http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/outreach/keys/L06.html
http://www.virginiaherpetologicalsociet ... id_-_8.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 18th, 2011, 5:44 am 
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Joined: April 11th, 2011, 12:03 pm
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spllogics wrote:
http://www.inhs.uiuc.edu/outreach/keys/L06.html
http://www.virginiaherpetologicalsociet ... id_-_8.htm


Thank you :thumb:


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 18th, 2011, 6:46 am 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:40 am
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Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
I'm gonna post all the skinks we found and took time getting good id pics...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 18th, 2011, 6:12 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:48 am
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Location: Delmarva
Carl Brune wrote:
Upper labials (between rostral and first upper labial that reaches the eye, exclusive):
4 -> fasciatus
5 -> laticeps
This is far from 100%. In Ohio, it seems like ~15% of fasciatus have 5 on one side. I've never seen one with 5 on both sides, but I'm sure if I play this game long enough it will happen. You definitely want to photograph both sides.


Yes and I have had broadheads with 4 labials on one side (no pictures unfortunately though). But lets review the 10 skinks:

Skink #1,2,3,5,6,&10 have 4 labials on each side of the head. This should be enough to conclude fasciatus

#8 has 5 labials on each side of the head, therefore laticeps.

#9 has 4 on the right, 3 on the left - fasciatus
#4 has 4 on the right, 5 on the left - this alone is an inconclusive trait
#7 has 5 on the right, 4 on the left - this alone is an inconclusive trait

Carl Brune wrote:
Post Labials - scales in front of the ear opening, behind the upper labials. Disregard tiny scales.
2 larger, roughly equal-sized scales -> fasciatus
none, or 1 larger scale -> laticeps


I used to think post labials were a better character than labials, but now I am starting to notice some variation making it less clear. Again lets review:

#1,2,3,4,5,6,9,10 have 2 postlabials on both sides of the head - fasciatus

#8 has 1 small postlabial on the right, but 2 on the left however they are very small, therefore likely laticeps

#7 has 1 medium postlabial on the left, however on the right, I am not sure if there is 1 or 2 postlabials, the upper scale is extra large and might not be a postlabial but instead split from one of the other scales - for me this is an inconclusive trait

Carl Brune wrote:
I'm calling #7 a 4/5 upper-labial fasciatus.


This is where we differ.

Carl Brune wrote:
I've read that young laticeps may show 7 lines, not sure where. I have no first-hand experience with that. I can see that on #8 and (perhaps) on #7.


#8 clearly shows 7 stripes, therefore laticeps. You can see 3 lateral stripes in the photo. 3 lateral stripes + 3 lateral stripes on the other side of the body + 1 mid-dorsal stripe = 7.

#7 to me, also shows a third lateral stripe, although it is very low.

Finally a size reference for #7.

Image

I was certain in the field #7 was laticeps. I continue to lean towards laticeps because of the 7 stripes (but is it really 7 stripes), but the postlabials are really bothersome. This specimen might have to be Plestiodon sp.

Any further thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 19th, 2011, 2:21 am 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:22 am
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Location: Athens, OH
I agree that #7 is ambiguous. I don't see the extra stripes, but it looks pretty big to have a blue tail...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 19th, 2011, 4:25 am 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:40 am
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Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
Carl Brune wrote:
I agree that #7 is ambiguous. I don't see the extra stripes, but it looks pretty big to have a blue tail...


I concur on this one.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 19th, 2011, 4:51 am 
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Location: Delmarva
Carl Brune wrote:
but it looks pretty big to have a blue tail...


I thought so too.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 19th, 2011, 12:32 pm 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:40 am
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Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
another 4/5 that I had trouble with in the field due to aging eyes.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 21st, 2011, 5:35 pm 

Joined: June 7th, 2010, 4:01 pm
Posts: 733
"I CONCUR"?????........REALLY??....... :crazyeyes:


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2011, 2:48 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
Image


Image


Image


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2011, 2:54 pm 
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Location: Delmarva
looks like a five-lined.


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2011, 2:57 pm 
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Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
Ok, I will submit it as such...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2011, 2:59 pm 
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no full body pics, or size reference?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: May 23rd, 2011, 3:20 pm 
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Joined: June 8th, 2010, 12:40 am
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Location: Pennsylvania- Bucks Co. near Phila.
I didnt really question it as it was normal 5 lined size... just lookin labials...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: August 7th, 2011, 3:24 pm 
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Location: Delmarva
Give this one a try - from MD eastern shore.

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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: August 8th, 2011, 4:44 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 3:41 pm
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Location: Connecticut
Five labials on each side say laticeps. I'm still learning with these, but it seems there are 2 post-labials. So maybe undetermined?


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: August 8th, 2011, 6:32 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 10:22 am
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Location: Athens, OH
Well, I see 5 upper labials on each side, but 2 large post labials on each side and it lacks the 6/7th lines on the sides. I would lean towards fasciatus, but can't be 100% sure. Go catch some more from that litter...


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 Post subject: Re: Let's play....Name that Skink!
PostPosted: August 9th, 2011, 1:20 pm 
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Joined: June 7th, 2010, 9:48 am
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Location: Delmarva
Carl Brune wrote:
Well, I see 5 upper labials on each side, but 2 large post labials on each side and it lacks the 6/7th lines on the sides. I would lean towards fasciatus, but can't be 100% sure. Go catch some more from that litter...


That is my inclination as well. We have already documented both laticeps and fasciatus from this site. All the broadhead juveniles I have found so far have the additional stripes, but I am not sure that is always the case. I should have counted the mid-dorsal scale rows on this one.


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