Massachusetts Timber

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AEthelred
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Massachusetts Timber

Post by AEthelred »

download/file.php?mode=view&id=2916

Ever seen a real Massachusetts native Timber Rattlesnake?

Here it is,I think this is from the Mt Everett area in the southern Berkshires
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AEthelred
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by AEthelred »

No one has died from a rattlesnake here since 1793 so they don't cause many problems,the last snake death was in the 1970's when a very small child died from a copperhead.

There are an estimated 500 or so rattlesnakes in the state mostly in the southern Berkshires but a few other isolated places.An even smaller copperhead population in the state.A copperhead bit someone on a golf coarse about 17 years ago .

As seen here New England Timber's have a very black coloring to them,it's believed that is to absorb more sunlight.
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Jeff
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Jeff »

That is a very different-looking Timber! Here in Louisiana they're always yellow or beige.
I was impressed by the strange black one's from New Hampshire that are shown in Al Braswell's "Timber Rattlesnake Conservation Action Plan." Yours is close.
Jeff
AEthelred
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by AEthelred »

Jeff wrote: June 11th, 2022, 10:38 am That is a very different-looking Timber! Here in Louisiana they're always yellow or beige.
I was impressed by the strange black one's from New Hampshire that are shown in Al Braswell's "Timber Rattlesnake Conservation Action Plan." Yours is close.
Jeff
They are so dark here it is true,they say it helps hold in sunlight.I have seen the Timber's down south and yea they have a lot more yellow and beige.And the lowland canbrakes have almost a blue in them,very cool.
AEthelred
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by AEthelred »

Makes me wonder why Maine says it has no more Timber's which makes no sense because Maine has so much wilderness.

Massachusetts is fairly built up but still has a Timber population and a couple hundred copperheads and Connecticut has a small timber pop as well but so many copperheads they are not even endangered.

It's unlikely Maine ever had copperheads but how were all the timber's purportedly eradicated with so much land for a small population to eradicate.Wherea's Massachusetts has less land and more people and could not wipe out the timbers
JWO
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by JWO »

AEthelred wrote: August 9th, 2022, 5:50 am Makes me wonder why Maine says it has no more Timber's which makes no sense because Maine has so much wilderness.

Massachusetts is fairly built up but still has a Timber population and a couple hundred copperheads and Connecticut has a small timber pop as well but so many copperheads they are not even endangered.

It's unlikely Maine ever had copperheads but how were all the timber's purportedly eradicated with so much land for a small population to eradicate.Wherea's Massachusetts has less land and more people and could not wipe out the timbers
I think most of Maine. Like the states up here is the Pacific Northwest we’re completely logged over at least once. Back in early American history and up through the the 1970s timber rattlesnakes as well as many still unpopular species of animals people deemed unfit to live with were eradicated from a lot of their historical range throughout the continental United States. There were even bounties throughout New England communities where if you turned in a rattle you got your money.

Many established populations were eradicated. Some by specific “turds” who I don’t even want to name since I don’t think they deserve the credit but the info can easily be found online.

Rattlesnakes in my opinion, are probably one of the harder species to recover from habitat loss, environmental changes and reckless hunting practices. For one they are only found in certain habitats. Just because they are within the borders of one state doesn’t mean they inhabit the entire state or would even be common, with some exceptions.They are constantly persecuted by a lot of the population for no reason. Someone thinks they saved the world when they tell their war story about how they killed a rattlesnake for no reason. Rattlesnakes in general make themselves easy targets because they let people know where they are at by rattling and they are probably the slowest snake I have ever seen. They are not fast by no means when it comes to fleeing predators and uneducated male humans.
Timber rattlesnakes in the New England have a disadvantage to those found in the southeast. The winters are longer and harder. The general climate in much cooler. Timber rattlesnakes also take longer to reach maturity then other species as well. I believe it is seven years.

I keep trying to reach out to Washington state wildlife officials to change the Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes status as a nuisance animal. Right now the way the law is written it would be illegal for me to remove a snake I found in my yard by just tossing it over my fence. If I didn’t want it in my yard I am supposed to euthanize it.

JWO
AEthelred
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by AEthelred »

JWO wrote: September 23rd, 2022, 8:56 pm
AEthelred wrote: August 9th, 2022, 5:50 am Makes me wonder why Maine says it has no more Timber's which makes no sense because Maine has so much wilderness.

Massachusetts is fairly built up but still has a Timber population and a couple hundred copperheads and Connecticut has a small timber pop as well but so many copperheads they are not even endangered.

It's unlikely Maine ever had copperheads but how were all the timber's purportedly eradicated with so much land for a small population to eradicate.Wherea's Massachusetts has less land and more people and could not wipe out the timbers
I think most of Maine. Like the states up here is the Pacific Northwest we’re completely logged over at least once. Back in early American history and up through the the 1970s timber rattlesnakes as well as many still unpopular species of animals people deemed unfit to live with were eradicated from a lot of their historical range throughout the continental United States. There were even bounties throughout New England communities where if you turned in a rattle you got your money.

Many established populations were eradicated. Some by specific “turds” who I don’t even want to name since I don’t think they deserve the credit but the info can easily be found online.

Rattlesnakes in my opinion, are probably one of the harder species to recover from habitat loss, environmental changes and reckless hunting practices. For one they are only found in certain habitats. Just because they are within the borders of one state doesn’t mean they inhabit the entire state or would even be common, with some exceptions.They are constantly persecuted by a lot of the population for no reason. Someone thinks they saved the world when they tell their war story about how they killed a rattlesnake for no reason. Rattlesnakes in general make themselves easy targets because they let people know where they are at by rattling and they are probably the slowest snake I have ever seen. They are not fast by no means when it comes to fleeing predators and uneducated male humans.
Timber rattlesnakes in the New England have a disadvantage to those found in the southeast. The winters are longer and harder. The general climate in much cooler. Timber rattlesnakes also take longer to reach maturity then other species as well. I believe it is seven years.

I keep trying to reach out to Washington state wildlife officials to change the Northern Pacific Rattlesnakes status as a nuisance animal. Right now the way the law is written it would be illegal for me to remove a snake I found in my yard by just tossing it over my fence. If I didn’t want it in my yard I am supposed to euthanize it.

JWO
Maine is heavily logged no doubt and in western Maine logging is the only real economy in what is known as the great wilderness of the "Allagash"

I don't question that part and I know well the bounties put on rattlesnakes until they were given endangered status.They were eradicated from almost all of Massachusetts and Connecticut,Vermont,New Hampshire and Rhode Island killed it's final Timber 60 years ago and Rhode Island is venomous free as of now since 60 years ago.But it's easy to see why Rhode Island was able to get full eradication and the other states 85% eradication.
I'm sure much of Maine has been previously logged but there is profound wilderness still in Maine.If MA ,CT,VT,NH could only get 85% eradication how did Maine get 100%
Cebusman
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Cebusman »

I am in Orange county, NY and I have seen both the light and dark morphs of timbers around here. They are not numerous.
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Porter
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Porter »

Just recently, I was watching my daily dose of NKA skateboarding on YouTube… and an algorismized video popped up in my watching options of Adrian Slade talking about rattlesnakes at a rattlesnake den.

As she was dishing out knowledgeable information to the audience, she mentioned that female rattlesnakes can hold male semen for up to six years. And I’m pretty sure she said, they can also hold semen from multiple males. They do this, so that they can wait to pop out babies when the time is right, and environmental conditions along with suitable habitat, is available for the Young’s survival.

So then I couldn’t help but start thinking about striped gopher snakes. And other aberrant individuals that have strange DNA traits of other snakes, that aren’t breeding compatible. (i.e. a Kingssnake and a gopher snake, for example) then I was thinking of that orange dorsal stripe I see on the ribbon snakes from Midwestern states, that I see in various YouTube videos. And it brings me back to the more normal patterned timber rattlesnakes that have that dorsal stripe.

So the thought of the day is this… and it’s more of the informational fuel of thought for herpetologists, rather than a question I need answered. Because I’ve already made up my mind as I’m sure some of you might have already guessed. :lol: so here’s the question:

If a female timber rattlesnake rubbed up against two mating ribbon snakes… (or in the case, the subject of the post timber rattlesnake, pictured above…. A timber rattlesnake rubbed up against a water moccasin or watersnake…) and got pheromones of the ribbon snakes, rubbed near its cloaca. Then, a ribbon snake, somehow mistakenly attempted to breed with that rattlesnake. Only successfully inserting its semen, but not impregnating…. And after that, within a reasonable time period of that breeding season, a male timber rattlesnakes successfully impregnated that female…. And she unknowingly & mistakenly stored both sources of semen for up to six years….. The ribbon snake and the male timber rattlesnake…..could and Did, we once finally get, the first striped timber rattlesnake…..?
….due to DNA coding meshed and mixed within itself, and becoming compatible…. in a scenario-able situation…. where it most normally and naturally, would not normally be compatible?
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Porter
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Porter »

One last reminder, just to remind everyone, that I was the one who thought it first, before anyone… the reason morphs occur in Delta areas where there is salt water influence (the kingsnakes in LA, the striped gopher snakes in Vacaville, striped sidewinders where is salt water once was, blackbelly kingsnakes, hybrid gopher-kings, ect, ect….) and never in the high mountains of the Sierras, is because the smelly water masks the scents of the snake snake pheromones OR just simply the watery mucky muddy environment during spring season, has snake semen, mixed into the water from other breeding species. That’s why the snakes display visual traits of different snakes, species in sub species, that live close to them.

But the correlation between the saltwater influenced habitat and strange looking morphs is an important key to the puzzle. That isn’t necessarily answered by pollution. And the ability to absorb water through the skin, I believe also has something to do with it. And the best example of that is the panamint and speckled rattlesnakes of the desert.

So what I am saying, specifically is… not only are they able to fuse the gartersnake DNA from the semen, with the rattlesnake DNA 🧬…. they are able to fuse, environmental DNA from rocks and vegetation as well. ( can someone post a picture of that one piece of weed that resembles a rattlesnakes rattle please because I got no idea the name of it but I’m sure all you smart botanist girls do 😘) which is why the speckled buzztails have mastered the ability of looking exactly like the granite rocks around them. Both in visual patterning and color specific to their locale.
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Porter
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Porter »

And just because I know how difficult this is to swallow for some of you… (get it, that was a snake joke) and because I have a bad habit of deleting things I’ve written because I think it’s embarrassing Someone (sometimes myself ) or I feel guilty for taking the credit for of all of this…. Let me rewrite what I originally wrote about the snake that is the subject of this post:

That timber rattlesnake has water moccasin / water snake DNA written all over it

… which is kind of silly to say, because it’s literally the same chain of DNA :lol: otherwise, it wouldn’t look that way 🧬
(Nerodia)

And to the author, friggin excellent snake :beer: because it stuff like this is going to make a difference 4 generations from now. And couldn’t have been done without the posting of the photograph.
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Porter
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Porter »

One final supplemental thought. Best displayed in an illustration.:

______________ 🕳️ _______________

💧 @ 💧 @ 💧@ 💧 @ 💧 @ 💧@ 💧

@ 💧 @ 💧@ 💧 @ 💧 @ 💧@ 💧 @

💧 @ 💧@ 💧 @ 💧 @ 💧@ 💧 @ 💧

Vitamin water = 🐍 = Mineral water
🧬 🧽🧬🧽🧬🧽🧬🧽🧬🧽🧬
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Porter
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by Porter »

One last thing and I promise I’ll shut the hell up 🤐

This is a Randall Carlson timeline of catastrophic events. He made this to show how many times the earth has suffered a catastrophic event, powerful enough to wipe out the human race.

So, I’m applying this to snakes… or just reptiles and amphibians all together. Basically animals with the capability to absorb water through their skin and to obtain minerals within that water.

Each time one of these catastrophic events happened, assuming snakes were alive at that time, which I’m sure they were… those snakes had to retreat underground and / or possibly swim across flooded environments in order to survive. Just like human Evolation getting its own restart…. So did the snakes. So across this timeline, snakes looked a very different way back then. And through the process of evolution, hybridization, and adaptation, ect… they retained their original appearance, however, gained a new appearance in that following evolutionary process.

So to bring this into perspective, here’s an example… let’s say all the snakes had stripes to begin with. Then a catastrophic event happened that pushed all of them underground to live subterranean lives. So they dulled out and became looking more like rubber boa and wormlike. Then as they evolved and living conditions became livable on the surface again, some absorbed DNA information that was specific to each locale, ecosystem, biome, ect… some of those snakes regained some of their original visual appearance, as their dormant ancestral DNA rose to the surface through following generations . And so striping occurred once again but now it looks different because of the new environmental conditions. I.e. different colors different shapes. then another catastrophic event happens, and the Earth is covered with water, except for mountain tops. Only a few of those snakes were able to swim to safety. Where now they’re basically adapting on an island. Hybrids for survival occur. The water levels eventually level out, and they’re able to return back down to the sands of the deserts. Now they are absorbing and adapting in all sorts of different ways, generation after generation after generation. (a good example of this is a California nightsnakes, glossy snakes, twin-spotted rattlesnake, gopher snakes, spotted leafnose snakes), Then the catastrophic event happens again. And the process repeats itself. The same thing is happening with the amphibians, Each in different ways to adapt for survival. And of course Darwin theory and all that shit is taking place. Natural selection. And all that stuff, is legit. The strongest survive…. Monkey loves Chongo, but not my monkey.

The snakes we have available in the natural environments today, are a living map of this evolutionary process. Or at least that’s how I see them. So when we’re looking at that aberrant timber rattlesnake above. I can’t help but see the correlation between the Watersnake - water moccasin - rattlesnake. I think it’s clear as day. And just like some animals that have evolved to look like plants or have appendages that look plant-like or prey, is exactly how the first rattle on a snakes tail had formed. The DNA sequencing to those plants that look like the rattle on a rattlesnake, was absorbed in the ground water, and then through the skin of those snakes, as they were making their evolutionary process back to the surface, and probably what was meant to be just a camouflaging mechanism, formed the first rattle. Many non-rattle having snakes, shake their tails when they’re scared. The snakes with this adapted tail, just so happen to be able to use it to scare off predators and potential danger of being stepped on. That pushed them forward in the Evolutionary process, and they began to rely on it.

(Another good example of this is the horny toad. It just happens to be a lizard that lives where there’s horny plant life) 💁🏻‍♂️

Here is Randall Carlson‘s timeline:


ImageIMG_5330 by Artistic Memoirs of Field Herping, on Flickr
hcarlton
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Re: Massachusetts Timber

Post by hcarlton »

Outolandish hybrid BS is still outlandish BS no matter how many times you try repeating it...
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