Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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Porter
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Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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chris_mcmartin
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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

Post by chris_mcmartin »

I don't know what it is, but those scales on the side view look pristine.
hcarlton
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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

Post by hcarlton »

There is even less chance of a Nerodia x Thamnophis hybrid occurring, especially in the wild, than there is a longnose crossing with a kingsnake (ie. zero chance because it's not happening with the latter either); Lampropeltini clade diverged some 3-8 million years ago (nearly all the genera therein), Nerodia and Thamnophis over 16. Not happening. Color varies, sometimes dramatically, in species, and every now and again an individual in any species can pop up where the scales are a bit off.
It's a gigas. Nothing more, nothing less.
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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

Post by Porter »

chris_mcmartin wrote: August 28th, 2022, 8:17 pm I don't know what it is, but those scales on the side view look pristine.
Chris, what do you mean by pristine? … I thought I knew what you were referring to when I first read it, but now I’m not sure lol

’Split by genetics, and not by damage to the scale…?’
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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

Post by hcarlton »

To be blunt, if you can't wrap your head around the simple fact that the animals you're talking about hybridizing are incompatible either genetically or ecologically, or the fact that convergent evolution, homologous traits, or natural variation are things that exist, you're even less qualified (and thrown even more so out if you make assumptions about what someone has or has not encountered -because yes, I have- or can make logical references to given known species ranges, descriptions, behavioral studies etc. that are accessible online). Stupid also to ignore the hard facts of well-covered genetic phylogeny studies that show the actual relationships between species on broad hand; jumping back to old Linnaean-age arguments based on external morphology at a glance only that undermines full cladistic classifications is also not science, but undoing the knowledge we've gathered that builds biological and evolutionary understanding. The concept of Occam's razor is not always applicable, but when the overwhelming majority of evidence points to the simplest explanation, that's usually the explanation and what should be started with, and trying to make a mountain out of a molehill is nothing more than another baseless conspiracy theory. Connecting point A to point G when there were no relationships to the necessary points in between isn't smarts, it's fiction.
The snake in question has nothing so extremely out of order as to actually consider it anything weird. It's a somwhat dark animal, the division between the scales ahead of the preocular are somewhat deep, but that can just as easily be affected by an environmental fluke during development as anything else and they're not signaling anything; take a quick run through the image galleries available on sites like californiaherps and you'll see such in more than one animal. Head shape is normal, labial count normal, lateral stripe is visible and on the expected scale rows, body structure standard, range within the known standard, general color other than the dark dorsal line is normal, the only thing truly extraordinary was the leap made to an unsupported conclusion. We can also take the mountains of evidence provided by interactions in captive settings; garter snakes that never cross in the wild will hybridize in captivity, and just about every cross that can be made in that genus among the accessible species, has been made. Same cannot be said, has never been demonstrated in any fashion, between cohabited and cycled Thamnophis and Nerodia, despite some people directly attempting exactly that; no one has ever made a hybrid with the two. And if a reptile facility in th Appalachians was able to accidentally produce a timber rattlesnake x copperhead hybrid, something that also NEVER has and never will happen in the wild, but we can't captively produce a cross-genus natricid blend despite trying, it's never going to happen in the wild either.
Also, the chicken-egg question was answered eons ago.
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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

Post by yoloherper »

Duuuude Porter, you gotta cool it with the hybrid stuff man, it's a gigas.
If you're disregarding range, the key in the close up face shots is the 6th and 7th supralabial scales- in couchii the 6th is wider than the 7th and in gigas the opposite is true. This snake's 7th is wider than the 6th which keys out to gigas. They can have a split prefrontal scale and there's a few pics of a maroon individual on cal-herps that says it's from yolo that shows it. Neither couchii or nerodia fasciata regularly have an extra prefrontal though so that doesn't really point to anything else anyways. The dimples you mention look to just be reflections of the light to me, but also not really sure why that would indicate hybrid either way.
As Noah mentioned on the original record, gigas from the southern end of their range are extremely variable. Perfectly striped morphs can occur all over and unicolored or fully checkered snakes become increasingly common the further south you go, but can also show up basically anywhere. This one has a faint dorsal stripe, pretty defined lateral stripes and some checkering in between which fits well within their range of patterns. As I know you've seen, the background and stripe colors are pretty variable as well, ranging from stripes of extremely light straw color to dark red against a background of anything from light green to black. This one is certainly on the darker end of the spectrum, but not all that unusual. The darkest I've seen actually came from northern end of their range in butte county, and the only snake I've seen from San Joaquin county was fairly normal looking, but did have a similar dorsal stripe that was faded compared to the laterals.
Two ends of the pattern and color spectrum found at the same site (posed together with permit)
IMG_2713.JPG

As for the nerodia picture you're referring to, it's viewable on cal-herps under the Florida watersnake account. It was probably a one off as no nerodia have been found anywhere else nearby in the last decade, and fasciata (which it appears to be) don't occur anywhere below Folsom.
-Elliot
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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

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Re: Nerodia X Thamnophis Hybrid...?

Post by yoloherper »

IMG_6955.png
The 6th/7th scale size can be really close and on snakes this small. We're talking tenths of millimeters, but the 7th is definitely wider than the 6th here. The width measurement is taken directly across the scale halfway up it. I rotated the pic just a little to flatten the scale ruler- 2.3ish units 7th here and 2.1ish for the 6th. Labial scale height isn't one of the diagnostic features of gigas.
The snake with a split prefrontal featured multiple times on Caherps was this one. I think there's 6 photos total of it. https://californiaherps.com/snakes/imag ... ohead3.jpg
Sweet snakes in the video, there are some nice looking orange ones in there!
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